Honor Killings

[slave2six]

Recent news

'A 20-year-old woman from Iraq has died in an Arizona hospital, nearly two weeks after her father, police say, ran her over with a car because she had become "too Westernized."'

Honor killing among Muslims is common, including killing a woman who has been raped as she is blamed for the lust of the men who raped her.

This practice is not denounced by Islam.

What the hell is that all about?

 

[gnomon]

As I understand, honor killings and other social practices such as FGM, neither of which are creations of Islam, existed within cultures that became Islamic. Those cultures wrapped their version of Islam, just like a bunch of neo-nazi's wrapped their version of Christianity, around a pre-existing culture.

To avoid generalizations let's look at the area with the greatest number of Muslims which also has one of the most singular cultural identities. Indonesia. No honor killings, no dowries, no throwing oneself on the funeral pyre, no female genital mutilation exists as a part of that culture. I do not believe the Koran condones such violence.

 

[Kerr]

As I understand, honor killings and other social practices such as FGM, neither of which are creations of Islam, existed within cultures that became Islamic. Those cultures wrapped their version of Islam, just like a bunch of neo-nazi's wrapped their version of Christianity, around a pre-existing culture.

Yeah, this is also what I learned.

 

[Sahar]

This practice is not denounced by Islam.

Killing your own daughter is not denounced by Islam? Source, please?

 

[RomCat]

A culture is an evil culture that
condones and/or tolerates honor
killings.

 

[Ozzie]

As I understand, honor killings and other social practices such as FGM, neither of which are creations of Islam, existed within cultures that became Islamic. Those cultures wrapped their version of Islam, just like a bunch of neo-nazi's wrapped their version of Christianity, around a pre-existing culture.

To avoid generalizations let's look at the area with the greatest number of Muslims which also has one of the most singular cultural identities. Indonesia. No honor killings, no dowries, no throwing oneself on the funeral pyre, no female genital mutilation exists as a part of that culture. I do not believe the Koran condones such violence.

More likely Indonesian law punishes perpetrators in what is an extremely culturally diverse society. You make honour killings where they are practiced sound like a filling for a kebab.

 

[Tiapan]

Darwinism in action, there are many ways to evolve, some to us seem more drastic. If to keep the breed pure and stupid you must cull some females to keep the rest in line. So be it. In New Guinea a tribe eats their relatives as a mark of respect when they die. Should we condemn them for their alternate life style, they have been successful for thousands of years (true they had not yet invented the wheel but give them time)

Btw they have plenty of other wives. and daughters who have not yet been sold.

I'll swap you 1 pedigree camel for 2 second hand wives, guaranteed low mileage. I will even throw in 3 dead cats, very nice fur.

Cheers

 

[zenzero]

Friend slave2six,

Honor Killings

They are not honorable humans, who does so!

Love & rgds

 

[Ozzie]

Darwinism in action, there are many ways to evolve, some to us seem more drastic. If to keep the breed pure and stupid you must cull some females to keep the rest in line. So be it. In New Guinea a tribe eats their relatives as a mark of respect when they die. Should we condemn them for their alternate life style, they have been successful for thousands of years (true they had not yet invented the wheel but give them time)

Btw they have plenty of other wives. and daughters who have not yet been sold.

I'll swap you 1 pedigree camel for 2 second hand wives, guaranteed low mileage. I will even throw in 3 dead cats, very nice fur.

Cheers

In keeping with your "theme", if culling some females means eating some menopausal relatives, herein lies the longevity of the chiefs espousing an
"alternative" lifestyle.

 

[Cobblestones]

Killing your own daughter is not denounced by Islam? Source, please?

I found this to be an interesting topic and did some quick Googling. On this site several Quran verses are cited with the summary

The above Quranic verses and authentic sahih hadiths clearly demonstrate beyond doubt that Prophet Muhammad, under Allah’s direction, stoned adulterers to death and flogged fornicators. Allah’s decree/choice of death for fornicators (Quran: 4:15) and flogging adulteress 100 times with no mercy (Quran: 24:2, which also could lead to certain death) has clearly sanctioned/dictated dreadful punishment for sexual intercourse outside marriage.

This article by Phyllis Chessler (Author of "Women's inhumanity to women" - which I have read and found extremely informative and eye-opening) states:

Families that kill for honor will threaten girls and women if they refuse to cover their hair, their faces, or their bodies or act as their family's domestic servant; wear makeup or Western clothing; choose friends from another religion; date; seek to obtain an advanced education; refuse an arranged marriage; seek a divorce from a violent husband; marry against their parents' wishes; or behave in ways that are considered too independent, which might mean anything from driving a car to spending time or living away from home or family. Fundamentalists of many religions may expect their women to meet some but not all of these expectations. But when women refuse to do so, Jews, Christians, and Buddhists are far more likely to shun rather than murder them. Muslims, however, do kill for honor, as do, to a lesser extent, Hindus and Sikhs.

The United Nations Population Fund estimates that 5,000 women are killed each year for dishonoring their families. (Source: "Chapter 3: Ending Violence against Women and Girls: 'Honor' Killings," The State of World Population, 2000, United Nations Population Fund.)

...Muslims, Sikhs, and Hindus view honor and morality as a collective family matter. Rights are collective, not individual. Family, clan, and tribal rights supplant individual human rights.

Others here have cited that culture is a huge consideration. However, some "Christian" cultures tolerated or condoned slavery but there had always been those within that culture and particularly within the pulpit who condemned it. However, I was unable to find any reference to Muslims speaking out against the practice of honor killings. Perhaps some of our Muslim friends could point us to any such outrage against this practice among modern Imams?

 

[Smoke]

Honor killings aren't just a Muslim phenomenon. It was legal until the 1970s in several states for a man to kill his wife's lover if he caught them in the act. In Texas, juries traditionally allowed the killing of the wife as well. In Georgia it was also legal to kill the lover of your daughter. In Western countries and especially in Latin-American countries, a "crime of passion" is punished less severely if at all. Some Hindus still practice sati, despite the fact that it's illegal, and dowry killings are disturbingly common in some areas.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam have all, at various times, not only condoned but mandated killing people who violate sexual purity rules.

Honor killing is one of those "traditional values" we hear so much about. It generally goes along with with traditional values about sexuality and the proper place of women in society. Almost anyplace you have a backward, violent, "traditional" society, you'll have honor killings. The reason we find it shocking now is that people from such societies are moving to Western countries that have mostly abandoned it.

It should not be tolerated in any civilized country.

 

[Twilight Hue]

A Muslim man beheaded his wife in a nearby county in February of this year. He turned himself in to police and summarily was charged with 2nd degree murder. His wife had an order of protection lodged against him but obviously it did no good. Agreed its not just the middle east anymore.

Just because a religion happens to condone such barbaric behavior doesn't mean society has to.

 

[Cobblestones]

a "crime of passion" is punished less severely if at all.

Hunting down your daughter and running her over is different, in my opinion, from catching your wife in bed with her lover. The one is a crime of passion. The other is not.

 

[gnomon]

More likely Indonesian law punishes perpetrators in what is an extremely culturally diverse society. You make honour killings where they are practiced sound like a filling for a kebab.

Sure.

 

[Sahar]

I found this to be an interesting topic and did some quick Googling. On this site several Quran verses are cited with the summary

So, Cobblestones, do you think this website is reliable? Are you that unable to differentiate?
From the same site:

Who are we?

We are a group of Muslim apostates, who have left Islam out of our own conviction when we discovered that Islam is not a religion at all. Most of us took a prolong period of time to study, evaluate, and contemplate on, this religion of our birth. Having meticulously scrutinized Islam, we concluded that it is not a religion of peace at all, as touted by smooth-talking, self-serving Muslims and their apologists from non-Muslim from backgrounds. The core of Islam—that is, the Qur'an, Hadis and Sharia—is filled with unbounded hatred for the unbelievers, unbelievably intolerant toward them and extremely cruel and merciless to Muslims, who dare to deviate from its doctrine.

Our Mission (Why This Site)

Our ultimate aim is to guide Muslims out of the fold of Islam. We also expect that critical voice against Islam will render it somewhat benign.
We plan to achieve our goals in the following manners:

• We will criticize and expose the real truth about Islam without minding about any political correctness, whatsoever.
• We will establish that Islam is false, that it is not revealed by any God, but was created by Prophet Muhammad himself to fulfill his greed, ego and ambition.
• We will prove that Islam has nothing to do with peace; instead, it is a dangerous cult founded through violence, terror, plunder and extreme injustice by its founder, Muhammad.

This article by Phyllis Chessler (Author of "Women's inhumanity to women" - which I have read and found extremely informative and eye-opening) states:Others here have cited that culture is a huge consideration. However, some "Christian" cultures tolerated or condoned slavery but there had always been those within that culture and particularly within the pulpit who condemned it. However, I was unable to find any reference to Muslims speaking out against the practice of honor killings. Perhaps some of our Muslim friends could point us to any such outrage against this practice among modern Imams?

What does Islam say about honor killings? Does Islam really have a concept of honor killings, most of the victims here are females; so does Islam really order to kill females in the name of honor?

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.

First of all, in order to sanction killing, it must be through a binding verdict issued by an authoritative law court. Individuals themselves have no authority either to judge cases or pass judgments. Therefore, a Muslim should not sanction such killing because doing so will be leading to the rule of the law of the jungle. A civilized society cannot be run by such laws.”

Shedding more light on it, Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:

“Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

The so-called “honor killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.

It goes without saying that people are not entitled to take the law in their own hands, for it’s the responsibility of the Muslim State and its concerned bodies to maintain peace, security, etc., and to prevent chaos and disorder from creeping into the Muslim society.”

Moreover, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council, adds:

“In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge.

Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment.”

 

[Sahar]

The Truth Behind (Dis)Honor Killings

 

[Gharib]

Honor killing among Muslims is common, including killing a woman who has been raped as she is blamed for the lust of the men who raped her.

should i call that willfull ignorance or just ignorance of islamic teachings, you choose?

This practice is not denounced by Islam.

thats because you say so. what does islam say so?

What the hell is that all about?

oh you know, the media putting a bad image on islam and people such as yourself falling for the bait. it's got to do with ignorance and all that. you know calling to the choir sort of thing.

 

[kai]

I dont beleive the so called "honour" Killings are anything else but murder, if someone has the capability mentally to kill their own daughter for whatever reason they are obviously a danger to themselves and society and need locking up. he stated traditional Iraqi values as his reason , why do we even validate that ? its murder.


does labeling it Honour Killing give it some kind of difference ? , i mean murderers have reasons all the time for killing people , why the label?

 

[Smoke]

Hunting down your daughter and running her over is different, in my opinion, from catching your wife in bed with her lover. The one is a crime of passion. The other is not.

Well, maybe you can explain to me just what the right kind of passion is. It's not okay to kill your daughter because you think she's acting like a filthy American whore, but it is okay to kill your wife because you think she's acting like a filthy whore, is that it? Is it the daughter thing or the American thing that makes it not okay to flip out and kill somebody because the way they act makes you feel bad about yourself?

Either way, women get killed because men think they're not real men if they can't control "their" women.

 

[Gharib]

I dont beleive the so called "honour" Killings are anything else but murder, if someone has the capability mentally to kill their own daughter for whatever reason they are obviously a danger to themselves and society and need locking up. he stated traditional Iraqi values as his reason , why do we even validate that ? its murder.


does labeling it Honour Killing give it some kind of difference ? , i mean murderers have reasons all the time for killing people , why the label?

this kind of killing was done in the pre sialmic arab world. a parent would burry his daughter alive just because she was female. islam came and changed all that, it gave women equal rights to men. these people that do this are just as ignorant and uncivilised as the pre islamic arabs. everyoe is moving forward while they are going backwards to their inhumane pre islamic culture. that is murder and he should be punished. there is no validation for this, everyone can claim traditional values of their ethnic background, because everyones ancestors we inhumane at some point in time. lets all get away with murder. how fun will that be.

has he been chardeg or anything? i didn't read the article.