Homosexuality and the Church

[Pah]

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=430

Homosexuality and the Church

by James B. Nelson

Dr. Nelson is professor of Christian ethics at United Theological Seminary of the Twin Cities, New Brighton, Minnesota. This article appeared in the Christianity and Crisis April 4, 1977. This text was prepared for Religion Online by John R. Bushell.

The gay caucuses now active in virtually every major American denomination no longer will let us forget that the church must face the issue of homosexuality more openly, honestly, and sensitively than it has yet done. Beyond this legitimate and appropriate pressure, however, there are other compelling reasons for the church to reexamine its theology and practice:

1. Homosexual Christians are sisters and brothers of all other Christians, earnestly seeking the church's full acceptance without prejudgment on the basis of a sexual orientation regarding which they had no basic choice.

2. While antihomosexual bias has existed in Western culture generally, the church must take responsibility for its share in shaping, supporting, and transmitting negative attitudes toward homosexuality.

3. The Christian mandate for social justice will not let us forget that discrimination continues today against millions of gay persons in employment, housing, public accommodations, education, and in the enjoyment of fundamental civil liberties.

4. The church is called to do its ongoing theological and ethical work as responsibly as possible. Fresh insights from feminist theologians, gay Christians, and those secular scholars who frequently manifest God's "common grace" in the world remind us of the numerous ways in which our particular sexual conditions color our perceptions of God's nature and presence among us. If the Protestant Principle turns us against absolutizing historically relative theological judgments, so also our openness to continuing revelation should convince us, with some of our ancestors-in-faith, that "the Lord has yet more light and truth to break forth."

5. The heterosexually oriented majority in the church has much to gain from a deeper grappling with this issue: an enriched capacity to love other human beings more fully and with less fear.

Futher discussion may be made for the remaining portion of the article

 

[standing_alone]

Good thread, Pah!:clap

5. The heterosexually oriented majority in the church has much to gain from a deeper grappling with this issue: an enriched capacity to love other human beings more fully and with less fear.

I especially liked this one. I think it's important. I think without this one, the other ones would have trouble being acheived. But then again, I think that without the other ones, this one couldn't be acheived. Hmmm. Just ignore me. I'm far too tired to think "straight" right now.

 

[michel]

2. While antihomosexual bias has existed in Western culture generally, the church must take responsibility for its share in shaping, supporting, and transmitting negative attitudes toward homosexuality.

...........is the one that made me think"OH yes!"

Nice one, Pah.

 

[Mister Emu]

1. Homosexual Christians are sisters and brothers of all other Christians, earnestly seeking the church's full acceptance without prejudgment on the basis of a sexual orientation regarding which they had no basic choice.

What exactly does this mean by prejudgement?

 

[Pah]

What exactly does this mean by prejudgement?

I can only take the word as I understand it. "Exactly" would require being in the mind of the author.

Prejudgement is discrimination and/or predjudice. In context, I would imagine it means not to judge based on orientation.

But perhaps you'd like to comment on your perceived meaning?

 

[Mister Emu]

In context, I would imagine it means not to judge based on orientation.

I want to know what it means by judge, does it mean calling homosexuals disgusting and not letting homosexuals in, or does it mean calling homosexual... intimacy... sin?

 

[Pah]

I want to know what it means by judge, does it mean calling homosexuals disgusting and not letting homosexuals in, or does it mean calling homosexual... intimacy... sin?

I have no idea what you're getting at. What do you think it means

 

[Quiddity]

I understand it just fine and have no fear of it what so ever.

 

[Pah]

I understand it just fine and have no fear of it what so ever.

How do you feel about the other 4?

 

[Quiddity]

1. I do not subcribe to the "no basic choice".

2. I completely agree.

3. I'm very liberal on financial matters and see no problem with this.

4. Is this like continuing revelation?

 

[BUDDY]

1. Homosexual Christians are sisters and brothers of all other Christians, earnestly seeking the church's full acceptance without prejudgment on the basis of a sexual orientation regarding which they had no basic choice.

Mr. Nelson fails to realize that the view of homosexuality as a sin is the view of God according tot he Bible, not the predispositional opinion of people. If in fact people are born gay, then God would be condemning people for being the way that He created them. I do not support this notion, and to do so would be to deny the very existence of my God, Jehovah.

2. While antihomosexual bias has existed in Western culture generally, the church must take responsibility for its share in shaping, supporting, and transmitting negative attitudes toward homosexuality.

The church must take responsibility for following the Bible, and calling sin what it is. Where is the hatred in observing that a certain action or lifestyle, whether it be homosexuality, adultery, robbery, lying, cheating or any other thing that the Bible says is wrong. I am blad that there are negative attitudes toward sin. It needs to be taught that sin is a negative thing.

3. The Christian mandate for social justice will not let us forget that discrimination continues today against millions of gay persons in employment, housing, public accommodations, education, and in the enjoyment of fundamental civil liberties.

The recognition of sin has always been and will always be a form of discrimination. To honestly discuss the issue of the relationship between sin and those living the Godly life (as well as one can) I must admit that. I know also, that discrimination today is veiewed by the secular world as one of the most terrible crimes one can commit against his fellow man. That is just one more reason that living the christian life can be so difficult. While my recognition of what is right and what is wrong may be accurate according to my understanding of God's word, it flies in the face of what is socially acceptable. God never said that living a christian life would be socially acceptable, and that doing his will on earth would be socially appealing to the secular world. However, God also never told us to hate a person for the acts that they do which are contrary to His word. In fact He told us to love one another. To love someone does not mean that you must blindly accept everything that they do, and love what they do. Anyone with children knows this. I do not condone those who would discriminate against people when it comes to secular things, but there is always going to be a responsibility to tell people what God says concerning their lifestyle and why it is wrong.

4. The church is called to do its ongoing theological and ethical work as responsibly as possible. Fresh insights from feminist theologians, gay Christians, and those secular scholars who frequently manifest God's "common grace" in the world remind us of the numerous ways in which our particular sexual conditions color our perceptions of God's nature and presence among us. If the Protestant Principle turns us against absolutizing historically relative theological judgments, so also our openness to continuing revelation should convince us, with some of our ancestors-in-faith, that "the Lord has yet more light and truth to break forth."

As one who does not accept the idea of "continual revelation", I can not accept this as a legitimate argument for the advocation of homosexual christians.

5. The heterosexually oriented majority in the church has much to gain from a deeper grappling with this issue: an enriched capacity to love other human beings more fully and with less fear.

There it is again. The recognition of homosexuality as sin, has nothing to do with love or fear. You can love someone, and yet still inform them and believe that their lifestyle is sinful. To do so is not fear of them, but fear of the sin in which they live. I fear sin, admittedly. I do not fear or hate the sinner.

 

[maggie2]

Pah,

Thank you for sharing. This article gives me hope that there are some in the church with some common sense.

 

[Evandr2]

Mr. Nelson fails to realize that the view of homosexuality as a sin is the view of God according tot he Bible, not the predispositional opinion of people. If in fact people are born gay, then God would be condemning people for being the way that He created them. I do not support this notion, and to do so would be to deny the very existence of my God, Jehovah.

I am in agreement with you that homosexuality will deny such a person some of the choicest gifts of our Heavenly Father but that is as far as I can take it. I have had private discussions with members of this forum and was gently chastised for my lack of sensitivity and, I am humbled to have to admit, rightfully so. These are good people who feel the need to express themselves differently than I do and I should not judge them. Our Heavenly Father is judge, not me.

Now, having made that declaration I must also add that as part of a larger society than just myself and my family I have a right and responsibility to help shape the laws that govern our community according to the dictates of my own heart and what I believe to be in the best interest of our society and its rising generations. For that I will not apologize.

As to your comment about God creating us, I believe that that is true of course but the question comes to mind "just when were we created, when did we become self aware, and when did we start to shape our own character."

Personally I believe that we came into existence a vastly long time ago before coming to this mortal probation and it was there that we started to develop some of the character that we manifest in the flesh. I also believe that our Heavenly Father knows that certain character traits must be developed before we can be blesses with all that can be ours as heirs to a living and eternal God. I absolutely refuse the notion that God created anyone with the inability to keep his commandments. The idea is contrary to everything we know of our Heavenly Father.

It would seem unfair that the fate of man is black and white, Heaven or Hell. There has to be some truth or reality that most Christians do not believe is true of they are not considering. It is my considered opinion that all will be blessed with a degree of glory save those few who choose to become sons of perdition and are cast out with Lucifer.

I also contend that by His very nature as a perfectly just and loving Heavenly Father, God has provided a place of great glory for even those most rebellious of His children, a place (or places) that far out shine our current condition. The part that we conceive as Hell, even in a state of glory, will be the mental anguish associated with the realization that the person has failed to be worthy of eternal progress in the presence of God.

It is by that virtue that damnation can be had in a state of glory for damnation is simply a state wherein progress is halted.

Is the person with homosexual tendencies going to regret their lifestyle.. I believe they will and that is why I take the position I do.. to try and educate according to the best of my ability and knowledge which is also a commandment from God.

I the person with homosexual tendencies hated of the Lord?.. Absolutely not, His love is perfect and offered to all.

I the person with homosexual tendencies going to be cast into outer darkness?.. NO Way. Again, the Lord's love and justice is perfect and offered to all. I think that God has a place prepared for all His children and it will be glorious to all, to some more than others by virtue of their obedience and to others still, eternal progress in the procreation of their own spirit children as we are the spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

Does our Heavenly Father want to give all of His children all that He has .. Yes .
Can the Lord deny the demands of Justice? .. No

For more clairification on my views concerning the subject of the final rewards of mankind please visit www.faithandevidence.com/source/eviden15.htm

Vandr

 

[Jerrell]

The Problem Arises when you try to conform the Church to the World. The world is to conform to the Church not the other way around.

Homosexuality is a sin.
Le 20:13 -If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Jud 19:22 - Show Context Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

The hebrew word Yada, translated "may know" is the word used to inference Sexual intercourse. It is the same word used when Adam had sex with Eve, he "knew"(Yada) her.

Romans1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

According to the Bible homosexuality is sin. Christ calls Christians to be dead unto sin, not to live in them.
Ro 6:11 - Show Context Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Pe 2:24 - Show Context Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
If you are saved you are healed of your sin, saved from it. You dont continue to live in your sin.

Fornicators dont go to heaven, Murderers dont go, liars dont go. These kinds of poeple just dont do that which christians do. Did you know Homosexuality is on the same list as these?
1Co 6:9 - Show Context Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Homosexuals wont Inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Now Wether gays be in the church(building, in this case) or not. They are not saved. they are just sinners, in need to give up their sin.

There is a need for change in ourselves. We need to give up our sinful ways and live for the Lord.

 

[Pah]

[.... as part of a larger society than just myself and my family I have a right and responsibility to help shape the laws that govern our community according to the dictates of my own heart and what I believe to be in the best interest of our society and its rising generations. For that I will not apologize

I'm not certain that creating discrimination and denying rights is good for the country and I wonder why you do. The power to deny rights and withdraw rights has a greater risk such that your descendants my well loose the more precious right. Who will stop the religious tyrants from disbanding faiths that do not conform to what they consider a dictate of their heart and their thought of what is the best interest of the country.

I have failed to find any justification for why any religious would see this discrimination intstitutionalized except that the environment is too "sinful" for your good - a temptation to sin. Temptation is of course handled in many more ways that are personal and/or the peer pressure of the congregation. Perhaps it is a collective weakness of the faith of the congregation. You just can't handle it amongst yourselves and you need the full weight of discriminatory law to help you. Perhaps it is a concern for the children because of poor parenting skills. Bring the kids up right, keep yourself right and there would be no need to get the government to help with your religious problems. Of course, I have no idea what your circumstances are so I do not adrress this personally. Please consider that where I have said "you" I refer to an individual not neccessarilty you.

 

[Pah]

The Problem Arises when you try to conform the Church to the World. The world is to conform to the Church not the other way around.

That is hardly true. I have not intention and so many others do not either to be "conformed" to the Church. As an American, it is my right not to have to conform or hold any particular religious belief or to hold none at all. In fact we still have that admninision for Christians that the world is not the kingdom of Christ. It is not the kingdom of the Church. When, I asked is that going to sink in?

Homosexuality is a sin.
Le 20:13 -If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Jud 19:22 -

I've been told that an abomination is unpure. I've been told that the punishment for being unpure is to be "cut off" from God. Now you would tell me that the wage of "homosexual sin" is death. Is that other Christian wrong?

And yet you still fail to recognize that homosexual is a rather late word invention and can not possibly mean today's homosexuality. The holes in your argument would allow millions of rich men to pass.

Show Context Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

My favorite verse to counter the myth that Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality. Gibeah wasn't destroyed was it! The host of the traveler was not spared alone was he? The whole town and all it's in habitants were spared. So it Christians think Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality and the sin wasn't mentioned as homosexuality in that story or anywhere else in the Old Testament, why could you possibly think homosexuality was the issue in Gibeah? So choose, my friend - Sodom or Gibeah. Gibeah stood even after the gang rape and murder of the traveler's concubine. how strange that one goes free and the other is destroyed.

The hebrew word Yada, translated "may know" is the word used to inference Sexual intercourse. It is the same word used when Adam had sex with Eve, he "knew"(Yada) her.

It has other meanings as well. See what better fits the circumstances of Gibeah and Sodom.

Romans1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

I know you think this was a reference to homosexuality and you are wrong here as well. The context is given in "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator". It was sex in the the worship of other Gods of which Paul speaks.

 

[Mister_T]

Homosexuals wont Inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Now Wether gays be in the church(building, in this case) or not. They are not saved. they are just sinners, in need to give up their sin.

God has spoken!

Perhaps you should go re-read the part in the Bible about the Pharisee's and the sin of judgement before pointing at others and telling people they're going to Hell.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

God has spoken!

Perhaps you should go re-read the part in the Bible about the Pharisee's and the sin of judgement before pointing at others and telling people they're going to Hell.

No, one simply needs to look at what Scripture plainly says about homosexuals:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor. 6:9-10

Simply reading the verse and quoting what it says (that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God) is not being overly judgemental or Pharisaical. It's reading and believing what God has said.

FerventGodSeeker


​

 

[standing_alone]

FervantGodSeeker,

Do you have a version of that Corinthians verse from before the word homosexual was coined in 1869?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

FervantGodSeeker,

Do you have a version of that Corinthians verse from before the word homosexual was coined in 1869?

Certainly: "No ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (KJV)

The term "effeminate" is also a pretty clear indication of a homosexual in older English. But thanks for asking.


FerventGodSeeker
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