Homosexuality and religious.

[dybmh]

Thank you for your response. In the end I hope you can agree, it is not our claim. Baha'u'llah has said he is the fulfilment and that fulfilment is found in what He has offered from G_d.

Who identifies the verses that were fulfilled? Who determines which verses are prophetic?

I draw from and only share what I have found in those writings.

If it is my own interpretation I will offer it is. The issue is I have been discouraged from posting the quotes that are the reference of my replies.

Well... I post Baha'i quotes all the time to ensure that I'm not making something up out of thin air. I've never had a problem. If the discussion is a prophecy, I'm not sure how to have a productive conversation without having the quote right there in the mix.

Baha'u'llah offered that this has always been a cause of dispute and said we should know the Writings so well that we offer them in the pure form.

'pure form' sounds like original language to me... just say'in

So a lot we say, is not really our thoughts, they are a watered down explanation of what Baha'u'llah offered as such thus is where error begins.

I think it's about credibility. Right now, between us, I can say, if there's a dispute about what a Bible verse says, I'm going to want to see what Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha, Shoghi Effendi, says about it if they are the source. That way it doesn't get watered down, and we can discuss precisely what has been written. But like I said, I thought most of the Biblical prophecies came from William Sears.

 

[dybmh]

We just need to discuss the Spirit behind the Words.

I don't think this approach works with prophecy. Lacks precision.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who identifies the verses that were fulfilled? Who determines which verses are prophetic?

I would offer that only the One that has fulfilled them can determine that, as the Message becomes the extension of the prophecies.

This is why the New Testament warns of the many false prophets and that the Truth is known by the fruit. The fruit yet to be given of past prophecies is found in the fulfilled prophecy, or one may say found on the tree that produces naught but good fruit.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well... I post Baha'i quotes all the time to ensure that I'm not making something up out of thin air. I've never had a problem. If the discussion is a prophecy, I'm not sure how to have a productive conversation without having the quote right there in the mix.

I would agree, yet I have had problems.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

'pure form' sounds like original language to me... just say'in

100% Correct. The problem we have as scriptures get older and go through more men's hands, is the erosion of the pure form.

I think unless a USB arrives from a alien species with the video recording of the past Messages, we will always suffer from errors of the pure word. (But even then it will be disputed, that is the nature of man).

Even now, when Baha'u'llah has revealed, recorded and sealed the Writings in the Arabic and Persian tounges, there are those that speak those languages, that will see them as inaccurate.

This is mainly because a new language is actually created at the time of Revelation, new meanings and new thoughts are released, they become the standard we need to now use. This concept is explained in detail, but it was also a concept given in the past.

Such as,

Isaiah 65:17
New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

Revelation 21:5 “And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true. '”

There are many more in past scriptures that add to this concept that we must see through new eyes and hear with new ears about what has been said in the past, as it is all made new.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think it's about credibility. Right now, between us, I can say, if there's a dispute about what a Bible verse says, I'm going to want to see what Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha, Shoghi Effendi, says about it if they are the source. That way it doesn't get watered down, and we can discuss precisely what has been written. But like I said, I thought most of the Biblical prophecies came from William Sears

I have not really studied the sources deep enough to offer an accurate informed reply.

A lot of what Wiliam Sears has in given in Thief in the Night, would have stemmed from what Abdul'baha has officially Interpreted and also works of previous renowned Baha'i Scholars. Unfortunately I do not think we have any English translations of a lot of their writings.

Those writings could be seen in the light of New Testament records, as they were inspired by what Baha'u'llah had revealed. In fact Baha'u'llah and Abdul'Baha had asked some Bahai'i scholars to offer these replies to questions asked. Yet I have read of them, but not seen most of them.

Here is what I am considering, as far back as 1865 there is a person Writing about the Bab and is quoting sources who are followers of Baha’u’llah. So they were already offering in their writings, most likely, thoughts about Biblical interpretation.

"...A.L.M. Nicolas published his book Seyyed Ali dit le Bab. It was the first work by a western author dedicated entirely to the Báb, His movement and His teachings. (Conflict: See 1865)
It is "(a) history of the Bábí movement up to 1852. Nicolas gives a list of sources for this book on pp. 48-53. It is interesting to note that among his oral sources are four of the leading Bahá'ís of that period, who had been designated by Bahá'u'lláh as 'Hands of the Cause': Mírzá 'Alí-Muhammad, 'Ibn-i-Asdaq: Mullá 'Al-Akbar-i-Sháhmírzádí, Hají Akhund; Mírzá Muhammad-Táqíy-i-Abharí, 'Ibn-i-Abhar; and Mírzá Hasan-i-Adíb. The other two oral sources named are Siyyid 'Ismu'lláh, who was presumably Siyyid Mihdíy-i-Dihají, and Mírzá Yahyá, Subh-i-Azál." [BBR38-39]"

So I hope you can note, that William Sears,being a hand of the cause and having access to much material, was able to.comple a book that has much foundation behind it, thoughts that were mainstream well before he recorded them.

For instance. The concept that AD1844 or AH1260 was the day the prophecy of the Messiah began to unfold, was already being taught in America by William Miller. It was not a new concept for the book written by William Sears.

Regards Tony

 

[HeatherAnn]

It’s good the OP brought this up.

Few realize how homosexuality has been normalized by careful indoctrination & normalizing. “The Overhauling of Straight America” & “After the Ball” discussed how to change people’s minds. Logic and science are not part of it - in fact you see how they are denied based on biological/reproductive facts.

The reason people flip out so easily is often because they know their reasoning is illogical &/or weak - like based on appeal to emotion & emotional reasoning. Few realize how they are acting as bullies in blaming others for them feeling hypersensitive to perceived bullying.

 

[dybmh]

17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

Caution should be taken with this one. It looks like you're still using the NIV? In this case the KJV is better. Basically the question is with this verse isolated: what/who are the former things? What exactly does it mean to be a new heaven and a new earth?

Using the NIV it's a little difficult to see, the former things are the "past troubles" from the previous verse. In the KJV it's easier to see because they translate the previous verse as "former troubles". This way the word "former" is repeated, so there's a connection there. It's more similar to the Hebrew which also uses the same wording repeated over the two consecutive verses. Imagine it as poetry. The repetition between two consecutive verses sticks out.

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
​

In the Hebrew it's even easier to see, mostly because Hebrew is such a concentrated language.

אֲשֶׁ֨ר הַמִּתְבָּרֵ֜ךְ בָּאָ֗רֶץ יִתְבָּרֵךְ֙ בֵּֽאלֹהֵ֣י אָמֵ֔ן וְהַנִּשְׁבָּ֣ע בָּאָ֔רֶץ יִשָּׁבַ֖ע בֵּֽאלֹהֵ֣י אָמֵ֑ן כִּ֣י נִשְׁכְּח֗וּ הַצָּרוֹת֙ הָרִ֣אשֹׁנ֔וֹת וְכִ֥י נִסְתְּר֖וּ מֵֽעֵינָֽי:

כִּֽי־הִנְנִ֥י בוֹרֵ֛א שָׁמַ֥יִם חֲדָשִׁ֖ים וָאָ֣רֶץ חֲדָשָׁ֑ה וְלֹ֚א תִזָּכַ֙רְנָה֙ הָרִ֣אשֹׁנ֔וֹת וְלֹ֥א תַֽעֲלֶ֖ינָה עַל־לֵֽב
​

So, looking back at the original text identifies what is "new" about the new heavens and earth. The words match perfectly from the previous verse. It's not talking about new interpretations of scripture.

 

[dybmh]

A lot of what Wiliam Sears has in given in Thief in the Night, would have stemmed from what Abdul'baha has officially Interpreted and also works of previous renowned Baha'i Scholars. Unfortunately I do not think we have any English translations of a lot of their writings.

Hrm. If there aren't english translations, how did William Sears get access to them and use them for research? I'm a little dubious on this.

So I hope you can note, that William Sears,being a hand of the cause and having access to much material, was able to.comple a book that has much foundation behind it, thoughts that were mainstream well before he recorded them.

You lost me. Sorry. William Sears was a hand of the cause? And he had access to a book by Mr. Nichols? And how does this connect the prophecies he writes about to one of the infallible sources?

For instance. The concept that AD1844 or AH1260 was the day the prophecy of the Messiah began to unfold, was already being taught in America by William Miller. It was not a new concept for the book written by William Sears.

Well. It's a bit fringe coming from William Miller. Unless the Baha'i include him as a perfect manifestation, I don't understand why his calculations are given any extra value.

Incidently in 1844, we Jews had our own gifted writer, the Tzemach Tzedek. Maybe he's who William Miller had foreseen?

The Influence of the Tzemach Tzedek

 

[CG Didymus]

Because it is a smoke screen. Most likely in quite a few cases, translation has contained interpretation, especially in the favour of Christain doctrine, but I always consider that many genuine people over many years have tried to produce an accurate record of what God has given in the past.

Why should I insult them?

The Bible is a sure spiritual guide, the key is we have to consider that the Quran and Baha'i Writings are given by God, and those scriptures allow us to view the Bible, as written, in the same light of God.

Regards Tony

Hmmm? KJV was translated by Christians, wasn't it? For the "Old Testament" part of the Christian Bible were there Jews used to do the translation or Christians?

And a "sure" guide? Using only the Christian Bible what would it guide a person to believe? Maybe not you, but I think a lot of people would be guided to Jesus Christ as the savior in the very way most Christians believe him to be. After all, the NT and the KJV were all made by believers in Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

Where did you get that from? I do not think that, nor did I say that.

Shoghi Effendi used the KJV as it contained the English He saw was good for translation. I remember watching a show about the process of translation, it was a mighty effort to get it right, but let's face it, do men always get everything right!

Regards Tony

Well, that's even better. The KJV is not perfect. So, where is it wrong? Do the newer translation correct the problems of the KJV?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Caution should be taken with this one. It looks like you're still using the NIV? In this case the KJV is better. Basically the question is with this verse isolated: what/who are the former things? What exactly does it mean to be a new heaven and a new earth?

Using the NIV it's a little difficult to see, the former things are the "past troubles" from the previous verse. In the KJV it's easier to see because they translate the previous verse as "former troubles". This way the word "former" is repeated, so there's a connection there. It's more similar to the Hebrew which also uses the same wording repeated over the two consecutive verses. Imagine it as poetry. The repetition between two consecutive verses sticks out.

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
​

In the Hebrew it's even easier to see, mostly because Hebrew is such a concentrated language.

אֲשֶׁ֨ר הַמִּתְבָּרֵ֜ךְ בָּאָ֗רֶץ יִתְבָּרֵךְ֙ בֵּֽאלֹהֵ֣י אָמֵ֔ן וְהַנִּשְׁבָּ֣ע בָּאָ֔רֶץ יִשָּׁבַ֖ע בֵּֽאלֹהֵ֣י אָמֵ֑ן כִּ֣י נִשְׁכְּח֗וּ הַצָּרוֹת֙ הָרִ֣אשֹׁנ֔וֹת וְכִ֥י נִסְתְּר֖וּ מֵֽעֵינָֽי:

כִּֽי־הִנְנִ֥י בוֹרֵ֛א שָׁמַ֥יִם חֲדָשִׁ֖ים וָאָ֣רֶץ חֲדָשָׁ֑ה וְלֹ֚א תִזָּכַ֙רְנָה֙ הָרִ֣אשֹׁנ֔וֹת וְלֹ֥א תַֽעֲלֶ֖ינָה עַל־לֵֽב
​

So, looking back at the original text identifies what is "new" about the new heavens and earth. The words match perfectly from the previous verse. It's not talking about new interpretations of scripture.

I personally see the key lays in the new heaven and new earth as we can logically conclude that his is not a material happening, as beside this passage, there is yet another verse in the Gospel wherein He saith:
Luke 21:33“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away.”

So we can conclude that passages that include Heaven, Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars have deep spiritual significance. Baha'u'llah has gibe into great detail explaining these in the Kitab-i-iqan.

Hrm. If there aren't english translations, how did William Sears get access to them and use them for research? I'm a little dubious on this.

This link is an example of what I offered about Bible Prophecy being discussed well before Willian Sears wrote his book. As I offered, I do not know his sources, but there would be many. This was being explored 100 years before Willaim wrote that book.

The Revelation of Bahaullah in a Sequence of Four Lessons

It shows an emerging theology.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, that's even better. The KJV is not perfect. So, where is it wrong? Do the newer translation correct the problems of the KJV?

I hope you understand CG, that I have absolutely no interest to know that, or even explore that, it is a zero priority in my life.

I see that all we have need from the Bible has been provided and is available.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

I personally see the key lays in the new heaven and new earth as we can logically conclude that his is not a material happening, as beside this passage, there is yet another verse in the Gospel wherein He saith:
Luke 21:33“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away.”

So we can conclude that passages that include Heaven, Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars have deep spiritual significance. Baha'u'llah has gibe into great detail explaining these in the Kitab-i-iqan.

This link is an example of what I offered about Bible Prophecy being discussed well before Willian Sears wrote his book.

The Revelation of Bahaullah in a Sequence of Four Lessons

It shows an emerging theology.

Regards Tony

Before I read this rather long document. Would you please confirm that you have read it recently? That way, I know that you will be able to discuss it once I'm finished.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You lost me. Sorry. William Sears was a hand of the cause? And he had access to a book by Mr. Nichols? And how does this connect the prophecies he writes about to one of the infallible sources?

I was just showing that Baha'is were offering explanations about prophecy way back in the 1800's. These people were learning first hand from either Baha'u'llah or Abdul'baha.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Before I read this rather long document. Would you please confirm that you have read it recently? That way, I know that you will be able to discuss it once I'm finished.

I have only had glance through that document with 4 lessons, to confirm that Prophecy was indeed mentioned.

I am giving examples to show that the explanation given by William Sears came from a long line of knowledge gained from either Baha'u'llah or Abdul'baha.

I have read the Kitab-i-iqan a few times. The theology is contained within that book.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well. It's a bit fringe coming from William Miller. Unless the Baha'i include him as a perfect manifestation, I don't understand why his calculations are given any extra value.

Incidently in 1844, we Jews had our own gifted writer, the Tzemach Tzedek. Maybe he's who William Miller had foreseen?

The Influence of the Tzemach Tzedek

Abdul'baha obviously thought these were important prophecies and has given Interpretation.

Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Commentary on the Twelfth Chapter of the Revelation of John
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

I was just showing that Baha'is were offering explanations about prophecy way back in the 1800's. These people were learning first hand from either Baha'u'llah or Abdul'baha.

Regards Tony

OK. From what I saw, there's maybe 2 dozen references to Tanach. The remainder of that huge document appears to be focused on the NT. That's not a lot of verses to work with. I see that there is at least a minimal connection to Abdul'Baha, and that helps thank you. But with so few verses included, I'd still want to see confirmation that a prophecy was identified by Abdul'Baha before assuming that the interpretation should be deemed infallible by Baha'i standards. But like I said before. That's just me wanting to be clear on what is and what is not supposed to be perfect revelation.

I am giving examples to show that the explanation given by William Sears came from a long line of knowledge gained from either Baha'u'llah or Abdul'baha.

I just looked at Theif in the Night again. There is no mention of going back to infalible sources. Instead it describes the author's research, combing the scripture and such. It's very much William Sears' work.

 

[dybmh]

Abdul'baha obviously thought these were important prophecies and has given Interpretation.

Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Commentary on the Twelfth Chapter of the Revelation of John
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

The commentary on Isaiah 11 is for 9 verses only. If you want to claim the commentary for those verses is infallible, that's your choice. I'll try to remember this so that I don't challenge you on your confidence.

The other commentaries aren't useful for me. NT prophecies are not meaningful to me. So I didn't read those.

If you want to go over the commentary of Isa 11 1-9, I'm up for it. Maybe that deserves its own thread. If you're interested, start it up and tag me.

 

[Truthseeker]

So **clearly** in the text God was not "wroth with Me for your sakes"

Sorry, should have noticed this comment! The quote clearly was from Deuteronomy, not Numbers, but it establishes a general principle that God could be "wroth with Moses" for the sake of the Hebrews sometimes, and this could be one of those times.

I also didn't include these parts originally:
All the divine discourses containing reproof, though apparently addressed to the Prophets, in reality are directed to the people, through a wisdom which is absolute mercy, in order that the people may not be discouraged and disheartened. They, therefore, appear to be addressed to the Prophets; but though outwardly for the Prophets, they are in truth for the people and not for the Prophets.

Moreover, the powerful and independent king represents his country: that which he says is the word of all, and every agreement that he makes is the agreement of all, for the wishes and desires of all his subjects are included in his wishes and desires. In the same way, every Prophet is the expression of the whole of the people. So the promise and speech of God addressed to Him is addressed to all. Generally the speech of reproach and rebuke is rather too severe for the people and would be heartbreaking to them.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 167)