Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

Nope, that's just a subjective opinion, other humans have the right to measure your claims against science, logic and even their own subjective morality, when that is manifestly less pernicious.

Of course everyone must decide for himself. But even though our views differ we can still both go our own way.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good point. Lots of folks do indeed have compassion for everyone. I have compassion for bigots even, but it's from a deeper perspective, where all souls have the spark of the divine. From that POV, all we're doing here is attempting to remove ignorance, or provide a spark for that. But in the end, the eastern teachings insist that someone has to come to it on their own volition.

I'm sure Hinduism has its laws and taboos, but it seems nothing like what happens in religions like Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. It must be that infallibility thing. They believe their prophet can't be wrong, so they have to at least act as if they believe and follow the laws.

 

[CG Didymus]

Because religious believers are compassionate -- with caveats. We can be compassionate without, since we have no gods to obey.

Some laws sure seem to get enforced more than others or maybe it's the behavior is considered worse and more of a threat?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Agreed, but this rather loaded response kisses the point. Perfect morality reflecting base human prejudices is a rather obvious paradox.

Anyway we agree to disagree but I sincerely thank you for all that I have learnt from you. You have taught me many things and I’m very grateful and hopefully will still continually learn from you.

Your posts afford me the priceless opportunity to learn to be more understanding, more patient and more tolerant towards those who have opposing viewpoints. To be detached but not defensive. To not take things personally. To still see your humanity and view you as friend not foe just because we don’t see eye to eye.

You have a great passion and express that you want all people to be treated justly and fairly especially homosexuals. And I fully agree with you that no person should suffer discrimination just because of the way they are.

As to whether there is a God or not that can decide what is moral or not, that should maybe be discussed in a new thread. But I know we have our different view points. That’s fine. But I still prefer to see you as a friend and I hope you see me as one too.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm sure Hinduism has its laws and taboos, but it seems nothing like what happens in religions like Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. It must be that infallibility thing. They believe their prophet can't be wrong, so they have to at least act as if they believe and follow the laws.

Yes, there is a huge difference, thank goodness. In Hinduism, many teachers insist you have to figure it out on your own, and of course, moksa is caused by merger of the individual (atman) with Brahman, so it is individual. Our worst scripture, by far, is the laws of Manu. While almost totally discarded now, it's the one that critics bring up, because it does contain lots of weird outdated stuff. Out scriptural library is massive, and it wouldn't take that long to find stuff that was archaic, scientifically, or otherwise. But we're an evolving faith, and certainly there is no infallibility. We also generally have some sensible explanations for some of the stuff as well. As I repeated to one Baha'i many times in the now 3 year old long discussion you and I were part of ... "Very different paradigms" I am encouraged others have taken up the role of offering the dharmic viewpoint of standing up to injustice even most here wouldn't realize that.

Personally, I value behavior over belief by about 20 times. I'm fine with beliefs I consider adharmic, just as long as people don't act on it. But as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And yet, here you are, on this forum, talking to a ton of non-Baha'is all about it. Have you noticed that very few Christians and Muslims, who share the same homophobic beliefs, haven't bothered to enter the dicussion?

That’s why I do not create threads regarding topics like this. But once created I didn’t have much choice but to reply.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s why I do not create threads regarding topics like this. But once created I didn’t have much choice but to reply.

You absolutely had the choice to not reply.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s why I do not create threads regarding topics like this. But once created I didn’t have much choice but to reply.

Just to be clear, this thread was created by a Baha'i, not by some anti-Baha'i. I don't think anyone here disapproves of the Baha'i faith in it's entirety, but just with homophobia and in the dogmatic approach taken. Of course that stuff does stand out.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you noticed that very few Christians and Muslims, who share the same homophobic beliefs, haven't bothered to enter the dicussion?

Why would they join the discussion? From the get-go this thread was all about how homophobic the Baha'is are for holding their beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

You absolutely had the choice to not reply.

Of course he had the choice. He could have allowed the Baha'i-bashing go on and on with nobody presenting the other side.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha’i laws only apply to Baha’is. Baha’is do not go around protesting or have public campaigns against homosexuality. We leave people alone to choose their own lifestyle.

Baha'is are called to go out and "teach" the Faith. What do you teach them? Love, unity, peace, for nations to disarm, and... if asked, what do you say about what the Faith teaches about homosexuality?

 

[loverofhumanity]

She's right none of us have to have sex just because we want to. But why not do it? Oh yeah, because the Baha'i prophet said, unless we are married, we shouldn't do it or even think about it, or to even get oneself off. And as if most Baha'is are able to live by those rules.

It’s still up to the individuals. In the Most Holy Book Baha’u’llah reveals laws and gives reasons for them but then it’s up to the believer.

He says in that Book. “Obey my commandments for the love of My Beauty”.

Now you’ve seen all the Baha’i House of Worship, the World Centre. No plates handed around. No contributions from non Baha’is. Only Baha’is giving for the love of Baha’u’llah.

So there may be many laws we do not obey. But the laws we do obey we do so out of love . My wife regularly gives Huquq but no one knocks on her door asking for it. One day in a Skype deepening on Huquq, my dear wife asked what’s that as her English isn’t that good and in Burma she didn’t know about Huquq.. so I told her and her reply immediately was “I want to pay that, I want in’. This is how the Baha’i Faith functions mostly out of love not obligation.

Back to sex. I avoided sex until I was married out of love for Baha’u’llah. Of course I could have done as I wished but I believed that Baha’u’llah knows what is best for me. Now I am happily married for 43 years to a wonderful lady and sex is the last thing that is important in our relationship.

If I ever began to only obey out of fear or duty, that day it would be better to leave the Faith as this is all about the love of God. Only lovers of God should join this religion. Others who consider earthly pleasures more important should go and have fun and go to nigh clubs and drink and gamble.

This Faith is for lovers of God. In this regard Baha’u’llah has said Who His Cause is for.


“This is not a Cause which may be made a plaything for your idle fancies, nor is it a field for the foolish and faint of heart. By God, this is the arena of insight and detachment, of vision and upliftment, where none may spur on their chargers save the valiant horsemen of the Merciful, who have severed all attachment to the world of being. These, truly, are they that render God victorious on earth, and are the dawning-places of His sovereign might amidst mankind.”


The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[CG Didymus]

So far the world has not even tried Baha’u’llah’s teachings.

But that's what I'm asking. The things recommended by the Baha'i Faith for a gay person to do is... what?

So, gay Baha'is are do things that are immoral. Then they should be stopped from doing that? Right? And how are Baha'is helping them overcome their immoral behavior? Therapy? A sex change? Celibacy? Since the Divine Physican knows the cure for all the worlds ailments, what does he recommend and has it been successful in treating the "ailment" of homosexuality?

What does the Baha'i Faith say that a homosexual should do to correct their homosexuality? Has it been tried? How successful is it?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just to be clear, this thread was created by a Baha'i, not by some anti-Baha'i. I don't think anyone here disapproves of the Baha'i faith in it's entirety, but just with homophobia and in the dogmatic approach taken. Of course that stuff does stand out.

Yes. I could have chosen to just ignore the thread maybe I should have. I remember you telling me once that you get upset when people misrepresent your beliefs so you usually feel the need to correct misconceptions. That’s why I entered the discussion as I felt that we were being misrepresented. We never embark on campaigns against others. We have our beliefs that are for us only. But live and learn.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, there is a huge difference, thank goodness. In Hinduism, many teachers insist you have to figure it out on your own, and of course, moksa is caused by merger of the individual (atman) with Brahman, so it is individual. Our worst scripture, by far, is the laws of Manu. While almost totally discarded now, it's the one that critics bring up, because it does contain lots of weird outdated stuff. Out scriptural library is massive, and it wouldn't take that long to find stuff that was archaic, scientifically, or otherwise. But we're an evolving faith, and certainly there is no infallibility. We also generally have some sensible explanations for some of the stuff as well. As I repeated to one Baha'i many times in the now 3 year old long discussion you and I were part of ... "Very different paradigms" I am encouraged others have taken up the role of offering the dharmic viewpoint of standing up to injustice even most here wouldn't realize that.

Personally, I value behavior over belief by about 20 times. I'm fine with beliefs I consider adharmic, just as long as people don't act on it. But as the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

Evolving is the key. And not being stuck with the "infallible" word of God for several centuries.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But that's what I'm asking. The things recommended by the Baha'i Faith for a gay person to do is... what?

What does the Baha'i Faith say that a homosexual should do to correct their homosexuality? Has it been tried? How successful is it?

I don’t know as firstly I’m not gay and that would be a confidential matter and I would have no access to such information.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha’i laws only apply to Baha’is.

That's why I asked about tattooing thieves and burning arsonists. Those thieves and those arsonists would then have to be Baha'is. But most all of us know the long-term plans for the Faith... To rule a Baha'i world. If the whole world doesn't believe, then there will be no peace or unity. Even the lessor peace is only a stepping stone on the way to the most great peace. Then what? The law says homosexuality is forbidden. How will that law be enforced?

 

[CG Didymus]

I don’t know as firstly I’m not gay and that would be a confidential matter and I would have no access to such information.

That letter from the office of the guardian told us... They should seek therapy from doctors. To do what? Make them not gay?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes. I could have chosen to just ignore the thread maybe I should have. I remember you telling me once that you get upset when people misrepresent your beliefs so you usually feel the need to correct misconceptions. That’s why I entered the discussion as I felt that we were being misrepresented. We never embark on campaigns against others. We have our beliefs that are for us only. But live and learn.

These threads die if either one or the other side of the debate stops posting. The OP did stop posting, and I'm confident lots of readers didn't post. As for misconceptions, they vary greatly, and for me, that would all vary as to the degree of so called misconception. But on RF it rarely comes up because we have very few active Hindu members who chronically post about Hinduism, unlike Baha'i who regularly create Baha'i posts and invite all to participate by putting it in an open part of the forum. I put my Hindu stuff in the Hindu DIR where it belongs.

 

[Vinayaka]

That letter from the office of the guardian told us... They should seek therapy from doctors. To do what? Make them not gay?

Lots of gay folk go to therapy for depression or suicidal thoughts. Not exactly what the guardian intended, I'm guessing.