Homosexuality and religious.

[KWED]

This has been explained before CG. There are fundamental Laws that are the foundation that do not change. One such Law that has not changed is the topic we discuss.
Then there are the laws that are subject to change, like prayer and fasting etc

So hatred of homosexuals is more important to your god than the rituals of worship?
Interesting.

This just helps us understand how people do pervert the Word of God, yet think they are not.

How does it do that?

 

[KWED]

"Bahá’u’lláh states that there are three barriers between man and God. He exhorts the believers to pass beyond these so that they may attain His Presence.
The first barrier is attachment to the things of this world,

What does that mean? Everyone is rightly and reasonably "attached to things of this world". Food, shelter, family. I'm particularly attached to sunsets in the mountains.What could possibly be wrong with this and why would god be against it?

the second is attachment to the rewards of the next world,

With all due respect, that is the fundamental reason why people believe.

and the third is attachment to the Kingdom of Names."

Sounds like another of his meaningless platitudes.

 

[KWED]

Clearly atheism is a good fit for you. I wish you well.

I wonder, in light of what I mentioned (and presumably you agree with), why you still believe that basically everything is essentially attributable to the supernatural.

 

[KWED]

As with an earlier attempt to compare the Baha'i Faith to the KKK, I believe the comparison to evangelical Christianity is a poor one.

The analogy was to compare the concept of people joining organisations that actively discriminate against them, iirc. Not to claim that they are "similar organisations".
Analogies aren't just saying "X is the same as Y".

 

[KWED]

The great thing about Faith is that it is 100% a freewill choice.

"The great thing about heroin is that it is 100% a freewill choice."

 

[KWED]

The great thing about Faith is that it is 100% a freewill choice.

Not for the billions who are indoctrinated from infancy.

 

[KWED]

That is indeed a quandary faced, but not one to be pushed aside, it needs to be considered. We have been given good guidance on this, guidance that the the veil of Names prevents us from implementing.

The Bible warns us of many false teachers and offers that no good fruit comes from a bad tree. Fruits of the Spirit have been given to us, so we can understand what is good and what is bad. It just takes time for us to study what this may be.

For some, they are more intune with this, it comes more naturally, personally, for me I have to fight the self every day.

Regards Tony

So IOW...

"Religious scriptures contain some questionable ideas, but religious scriptures tell us not to worry about it".

 

[Dawnofhope]

I wonder, in light of what I mentioned (and presumably you agree with), why you still believe that basically everything is essentially attributable to the supernatural.

I do not believe everything is attributable to the supernatural. However I do believe there is a God. I grew up with Christianity, moved away, and then came back again. The Baha'i Faith is a renewed version of Christianity for me. I believe in God because it makes sense to do so and applying religious teachings to my life is of practical benefit.

How about you @KWED? This thread has been going for over 10 days and you have already contributed 500 posts, way more than anyone else. Its a great deal of time and energy, with over 40 per day. What are you hoping to achieve through posting here? What is about the Baha'is that has you keep coming back and posting more and more?

 

[KWED]

Well if the Baha'is were having expeditions at night riding on horses, hooded, burning 9 sided stars on the lawns of their local gay couples...I'd have to agree.

So you would consider a statement by the KKK that being black is "evil, immoral, shameful aberration, against nature, handicap, to be purged from the world", to be acceptable?

 

[Sheldon]

But they can stop engaging in gay sex just as I can stop engaging in heterosexual sex.

Why should they, the puritanical obsession religions have with other people's sex lives is unhealthy and deeply pernicious. It's also pretty obviously a hitman prejudice borne of ignorance and fear, so it undermines the unevidenced claim this idea is from a perfect or perfectly moral deity.

 

[KWED]

So comparing the Baha'is to the KKK isn't absurd and my post is absurd because the KKK no longer ride horses?

It is somewhat more nuanced than that, but in essence - yes.

The analogy is about attitudes to discrimination and prejudice. You think that Bahaism and the KKK are entirely different because of the obvious superficial differences, but as I pointed out, the superficials are irrelevant. It is the underlying approach to those considered "unacceptably different" where the similarities lie.

Remember that homosexuals have been, and still are lynched in public based on the words and deeds of one of Bahaism's infallible messengers of god.

So as you can appreciate, the analogy is not so inappropriate as you may have initially assumed.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I am under no obligation to see your claims the way you choose to

Nor are we under any obligation to see our claims the way you choose to.

Nice straw man as I never claimed you were, unlike Tony of course, who said precisely that when I posted a logical inference of a claim he made, that he clearly didn't want to address. So he resorted to petty ad hominem, but of course it is not me he is ignoring, it is the logical inference he knows he has no answer to.

Yet you continually propagate your personal opinions, as if they are facts.

Rubbish.

Your personal opinions about homosexuality are not facts,

If they are supported by objective evidence I say so, if i am offering a personal subjective moral positions I say so, you are the one who relentlessly presents your subjective unevidenced religious beliefs as facts, not only that claiming risibly to be 100% certain.

Your beliefs on gay people are pernicious, that is a fact.

 

[Sheldon]

Nor are we under any obligation to see our claims the way you choose to.

Yet you continually propagate your personal opinions, as if they are facts.
Your personal opinions about homosexuality are not facts, not any more than our beliefs are facts.

What exactly does this disjointed and irrelevant rant have to do with my post?

I am under no obligation to see your claims the way you choose to, I asked for clarification and you run away, and insult me, that says it all really. You really don't see how blinkered you have become, and that you are incapable of any rational thought that doesn't bend to this belief you hold.

It seems you no more want address the logical ramifications of Tony's claim than he did, and for the same reason I suspect, as you know you have no rational answer. Calming a deity is perfectly moral, then claiming it changes it laws, is a logical contradiction. So Tony made a claim that was irrational, and I pointed this out, I am not asking anyone to see anything my way, you can be as irrational as you like, but I didn't invent logic, nor are its principles based on anyone's subjective opinion, it's efficacy as a method of reasoning is objectively measurable.

 

[KWED]

We don't know. It's up to each nation under the Baha'i Commonwealth what they will do is my understanding and the rights of the minority will be respected. I was concerned about this and wrote the Universal House of Justice. Here is my query and their reply:

Is there any definitive guidance on what we will do when the Baha’is become a majority in a country? Will the national assembly take over? Or will we form a new government by other means. I am worried about shutting people out of the administration of a government. I am afraid we will cause bad feelings. Could we have a different law for Baha’is and other people so as to not impose Baha’i law on others?

Mr. Duane Dawson

Dear Bahá’í Friend,

The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:

Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53) With loving Bahá’í greetings, Department of the Secretariat

So even when the World Bahai Government has been established, individual nations will still make their own laws based on the will of the people and those in power?
So, kinda just like it is now then?

 

[Sheldon]

We accept what Baha'u'llah wrote because we believe it came from God and we believe that God knows more than we know about what is beneficial and destructive for humans, since God created humans.

Circular reasoning fallacy, yet again. You have no objective evidence any deity exists, or is even possible. So the rest is pure subjective assumption. prophets and deities are ten a penny, and those who peddle them deny all the rest, yet none of them can offer a shred of objective evidence for theirs, just subjective claims.

 

[KWED]

Do I have to approve of homosexuality in order for you to think I am not prejudiced?

No, you just have to accept it as a legitimate and moral form of sexuality. One that does no harm and should be afforded just the same rights and respect as heterosexuals.

 

[KWED]

Yes, but a man can't get pregnant, can he?

Some women can't get pregnant either. Not sure what the relevance is.

 

[Sheldon]

samtonga43 said: ↑
Is the point of religion to make one 'happy'?

No, absolutely not.

I don't know any Baha'is who are unhappy.

Just a coincidence then....

 

[KWED]

You don't believe in God and/or the God of the Bible. OK, that's why you are where you are, and I am where I am, and I'll let God decide.

So it's the "Because god said so" argument?

Then again, at this point in my life, I don't believe that heterosexual persons should commit fornication or adultery. But if you do -- that's your choice.

This argument would suggest that married homosexuality is acceptable. If not, then you shouldn't be bringing unmarried heterosexual sex into the argument (false equivalence fallacy).

 

[Sheldon]

Do I have to approve of homosexuality in order for you to think I am not prejudiced?

No, just stop openly discriminating against them with homophobia.