waitasec
Veteran Member
It doesn't bother me.
And by the way, I CAN shoot!
why do i believe you?
but if it did, would you consider it?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Homosexuality and Gender Roles
- Thread starter Averroes
- Start date
why do i believe you?
but if it did, would you consider it?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
why do i believe you?
but if it did, would you consider it?
Wait - are you saying IF my hobbies and interests bothered other people, would it bother ME, and if it did would I change my hobbies?
Too many IFs there.
But - I'm not generally offended by people disagreeing with me. I'm too self confident for that to bother me.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i understand that you are a very confident person...confident enough to put yourself in someone else's shoes who happens to not be confident for any particular reason, from constantly being mistaken to being a man or that they just came out...
why would anyone who is confident in their person conform to what other people say is "normal". if anything her reaction, from my POV, was absolutely understandable...
it's as if you walk on to a shooting range with your husband and they automatically make your target easier to shoot than his...
wouldn't that offend you in some way or another, even though you yourself know your a bad a** at the shooting range?
I think many people, heterosexual or homosexual, just wear what they feel comfortable in and what they feel expresses who they are.
As far as homosexuals in particular, sometimes I'm curious regarding the differences between transgenderism and homosexuality in certain instances. Of course, the difference between transgenderism and homosexuality is itself clear- one is about gender identity and one is about sexual attraction. But when a subset of homosexuals act very much like what is typical behavior or expression of the opposite gender in their society (like a really effeminate gay man, for example), I get curious regarding the difference between them and a transgender person. Because apparently, although they associate significantly with behaviors of what is normally expected of the opposite gender, they still identify as their current gender and don't wish to alter their body.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Give me a break - I'm not putting myself in their shoes. I'm giving my opinion. That's not necessarily the same thing.
What I am saying is this - if I were constantly mistaken for being a man, I would have several options:
1. Be mad everytime it happened
2. Be bemused when it happened
3. Accept it as part of the price I pay for expressing myself (because clothing, hairstyle, etc - the parts of our appearance which we have control over - are voluntary expressions of ourselves)
4. Change something about my appearance so that people didn't routinely mistake me for a man
At least two of the four options would result in less angst and bitterness. Personally I prefer less angst and bitterness in my own life, but I realize that for some people, bitterness is their modus operandum.
Why would anyone who is confident be BOTHERED by what other people think is "normal?"
Nope. In fact, on the shooting range, full of testosterone, men REGULARLY assume I don't know what I'm doing. Personally, I think it's hilarious, and my husband and I both get a big kick out of me surprising the hell out of them.
In fact, one of our first dates was to the shooting range, and we framed the target I shot - bulls eye - from 100 yards. What's funny about it is the memory associated with it. The guys standing around thought i had missed the target, and then one of those redneck boys whistled and said, "Well, I'll be damned - she hit it dead center." And I turned around to them and said, "Right. And I can do it again. Watch this."
They got real quiet after that, and left a few minutes later - without shooting anymore.
Confidence. Get some.
Last edited:
waitasec
Veteran Member
i choose to be empathetic i suppose.
true. but i think this far deeper than what you implied here.
maybe it's because they are constantly being judged and labeled about something that goes to the core of a person?
i get that i am a female recording engineer and it is saturated with men
but see it's easy to show your ability...because you have it.
we are talking about people being judged by their appearance not their ability...
i would assume your confidence as a person doesn't depend on your ability to shoot a gun as is my ability to record and produce music.
but when we're talking about a persons gender..this goes deep into the core of a persons identity... a woman who walks into a room who unmistakably looks like a woman has absolutely no idea what it's like to walk into a room being mistaken for a man...because of what she is is understood
however a person who doesn't fit into the mold is saying they aren't understood by the way they choose to express their self...
another thing to keep in mind is that people who do not conform usually are not around conformity that often and are taken aback when judged by appearances
the music business is about unconformity...ever notice how the grammies is always pushing the envelope?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
It's not that I'm not empathetic. Believe me, I know what it's like to be harshly judged. I am the mother of four biracial children. You think I haven't been the target of prejudice or harsh judgment, or stares in restaurants or snide comments from strangers?
I learned early on though as a young mother, that I wasn't going to apologize for my decision to marry a black man, or have his children, and I wasn't going to hide my decisions either. I was and am proud of my children and proud of my (at the time), shall we say, unorthodox, choices.
Because I don't fit a stereotypical image of "a white woman who marries a black guy" I was often mistaken as the ADOPTIVE mom of my kids. Yes - there are stereotypes about white women who marry black men - I've head and witnessed all of them.
When someone assumed I had adopted all my kids, or that I was a foster parent, I had choices. I could:
1. Be offended and internalise my anger
2. Be offended and call them out on it
3. Play it off - thereby effectively "disowning" my kids and my personal choices
4. Gently explain that "These are my children - I mean, my flesh and blood" and then be quietly amused when I saw the look of consernation on their faces.
waitasec, I've actually had church ladies come up to me in the line at Lubys and say, "I just want you to know how much I admire your decision to adopt all these little black children."
I've had redneck men and women sneer at me or roll their eyes at me in public.
I've had school secretaries shout at me in front of my kids and INSIST that I choose ONE designation - "Is your kid BLACK or WHITE?" on school enrollment forms.
So don't assume I can't be empathetic, and yet firm, simultaneously.
If one is going to live openly and unconventionally, one best develop thick skin and a sense of humor.
I learned early on though as a young mother, that I wasn't going to apologize for my decision to marry a black man, or have his children, and I wasn't going to hide my decisions either. I was and am proud of my children and proud of my (at the time), shall we say, unorthodox, choices.
Because I don't fit a stereotypical image of "a white woman who marries a black guy" I was often mistaken as the ADOPTIVE mom of my kids. Yes - there are stereotypes about white women who marry black men - I've head and witnessed all of them.
When someone assumed I had adopted all my kids, or that I was a foster parent, I had choices. I could:
1. Be offended and internalise my anger
2. Be offended and call them out on it
3. Play it off - thereby effectively "disowning" my kids and my personal choices
4. Gently explain that "These are my children - I mean, my flesh and blood" and then be quietly amused when I saw the look of consernation on their faces.
waitasec, I've actually had church ladies come up to me in the line at Lubys and say, "I just want you to know how much I admire your decision to adopt all these little black children."
I've had redneck men and women sneer at me or roll their eyes at me in public.
I've had school secretaries shout at me in front of my kids and INSIST that I choose ONE designation - "Is your kid BLACK or WHITE?" on school enrollment forms.
So don't assume I can't be empathetic, and yet firm, simultaneously.
If one is going to live openly and unconventionally, one best develop thick skin and a sense of humor.
waitasec
Veteran Member
you yourself said that you were not going to put yourself in their shoes, did you not? i was responding to that statement not to your person.
so why would you be offended by that? are you insecure in your ability to empathize? i would say no because that is who you are just as this girl is a woman...
see what i mean?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Pay attention. I didn't say I was unable to put myself in their shoes, ie empathize. I said in that particular post, I wasn't putting myself in their shoes. I was simply giving advice.
And I'm not offended. I'm simply clarifying. May I suggest that you don't twist what I say? Ooops, I forgot - that's how you roll.
waitasec
Veteran Member
pay attention i didn't say you were
you are putting words in my mouth...
you said opinion...a judgment
pay attention kathryn....you are coming off as insecure...are you?
then stop acting like you are. simple.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Oh, I'm sorry, I must have misread this convuluted statement of yours:
To clarify, so that you won't again twist my words - I did not say that I was not going to put myself in their shoes. Are we clear now?
And I guess you didn't really SAY I wasn't going to do so - I guess what you really said was "You yourself said you were not going to put yourself in their shoes."
And you don't think this is another fine example of your habit of twisting others' words to fit your own agenda?
Wow.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
To address the OP, it's actually society that makes gender roles. But it's quite a meaningless, boring, and repressive if you adhere to them just because of your physical sex. There are plenty of men who act hyper-masculine to try and prove there manliness, plenty of women who cave to social pressures to be feminine, and alot of people who transcend such expectations and will do things that are for the opposite sex without worry.
As for the woman in question in the OP, she likely has faced heavy discrimination or has serious self-image issues if she got worked up over a very simply and honest mistake. And there are also plenty of people who are androgynous enough to make the call difficult, or they intentionally blur the lines to the point of making it difficult to tell.
There are also many different varieties of transsexuals. Some just acknowledge it and occasionally act as the opposite sex, some are content in occasionally presenting as the opposite sex, some find solace in only have hormone replacement therapy, and others go through with a full transition, and anything else in between. Again it's simply because nature prefers diversity, and our own culture is very shallow and black and white when it comes to sex, gender, and gender expression and identity. While our culture only has two terms for sex and gender, some have up to seven and possibly more.
As for the woman in question in the OP, she likely has faced heavy discrimination or has serious self-image issues if she got worked up over a very simply and honest mistake. And there are also plenty of people who are androgynous enough to make the call difficult, or they intentionally blur the lines to the point of making it difficult to tell.
It's simply the wonders of how nature prefers diversity. And you are correct that one is about gender identity and the other sexual orientation. There is also a degree of biology, and some studies are starting to show that certain areas of the brain in homosexuals (men at least in the study I read) develop more like that of the opposite sex than their birth sex. But there brain still identifies as their birth sex. Transsexuals OTOH have brains that do look very similar, practically identical, to that of the opposite of their birth sex. This causes a reaction to not only be drawn to gender roles, behaviors, etc., of the opposite sex, but also identify as such.
There are also many different varieties of transsexuals. Some just acknowledge it and occasionally act as the opposite sex, some are content in occasionally presenting as the opposite sex, some find solace in only have hormone replacement therapy, and others go through with a full transition, and anything else in between. Again it's simply because nature prefers diversity, and our own culture is very shallow and black and white when it comes to sex, gender, and gender expression and identity. While our culture only has two terms for sex and gender, some have up to seven and possibly more.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Thanks for the insight. Very interesting.
As for the woman who was so offended by an honest mistake, I can empathise, but I highly recommend that she alter her response. A negative, angry response does absolutely NOTHING to further understanding and acceptance. A kind, gracious response opens communication. I have learned that over the years when fielding reactions about my brood of brown kids and grandkids.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Oh, I'm sorry, I must have misread this convuluted statement of yours:
To clarify, so that you won't again twist my words - I did not say that I was not going to put myself in their shoes. Are we clear now?
And I guess you didn't really SAY I wasn't going to do so - I guess what you really said was "You yourself said you were not going to put yourself in their shoes."
And you don't think this is another fine example of your habit of twisting others' words to fit your own agenda?
Wow.
yup wow..just wow.
how far are you willing to go?
show me where i said you were unable to....
that is putting words in my mouth
Last edited:
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Seriously? Having short hair, wearing pants and not walking with a slinky hip wiggle mean I'm a guy? Or that I'm trying to take on the mans gender role?
Should I get out of the lab and into the kitchen too?
I'm only expressing my female "gender role" looking like this?
or like this:
I suppose men in tights, frilly shirts and foofy wigs are being "feminine" then?
that's so gay!
wa:do
Should I get out of the lab and into the kitchen too?
I'm only expressing my female "gender role" looking like this?
or like this:
I suppose men in tights, frilly shirts and foofy wigs are being "feminine" then?
that's so gay!
wa:do
Last edited:
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I was clearly discussing one post and one comment I made - and the fact that in that one post, I was not discussing "empathy" - I was being factual and objective rather than warm and fuzzy.
That should be clear to you - and I believe it is. However, I also believe it's inconvenient for you to accept.
Hey, guess what - I'm not conforming - and I have the self confidence to back up that decision!
.
Last edited:
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
By the way, waitasec, I never said that you said that I was unable to put myself in someone else's shoes.
Sheeze. This is an incredibly stupid conversation - and a reminder to me that I should perhaps drop my perpetually optimistic attitude when it comes to some interactions.
Sheeze. This is an incredibly stupid conversation - and a reminder to me that I should perhaps drop my perpetually optimistic attitude when it comes to some interactions.
The only gay men you see acting effeminate are the gay men acting effeminate. There are more gay men around you than you can possibly imagine, who are as masculine as a lumberjack.
Sources?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I didn't say the majority of gay men "act gay." The majority of white people may be able to dance too, for all I know.
Stereotypes are usually based on the actions of some members of a group. We are all "guilty" of stereotyping to some extent.
I lock my car doors if I suddenly realise that they are unlocked and a group of young men is headed toward my car in an otherwise empty parking lot or on a darkened city street. Am I stereotyping? Does that mean that I think that all young men mean me harm? No. It simply means that I acknowledge the unpleasant reality that SOME young men may mean harm to a woman alone in a car on a darkened street.
I shouldn't have to give a source for common sense.