Homosexuality and Gender Roles

[Jainarayan]

I didn't say the majority of gay men "act gay." The majority of white people may be able to dance too, for all I know.

Anyone who pretends not to notice that a good proportion of gay men act effeminate...

I shouldn't have to give a source for common sense.

Anyone who pretends not to notice that a good proportion of gay men act effeminate...

You have to know the total population of gay men to know what a good proportion is. If the total population of gay men is 1,000,000 and 100,000 act effeminate, 10% is not a "good proportion" in my book. But we don't know what the ratio of masculine : effeminate is to say what a "good proportion" is.

 

[waitasec]

By the way, waitasec, I never said that you said that I was unable to put myself in someone else's shoes.

Sheeze. This is an incredibly stupid conversation - and a reminder to me that I should perhaps drop my perpetually optimistic attitude when it comes to some interactions.

yes it is a stupid conversation..
because the messenger relaying an idea...became the target.

 

[Kathryn]

Anyone who pretends not to notice that a good proportion of gay men act effeminate...

You have to know the total population of gay men to know what a good proportion is. If the total population of gay men is 1,000,000 and 100,000 act effeminate, 10% is not a "good proportion" in my book. But we don't know what the ratio of masculine : effeminate is to say what a "good proportion" is.

Skirting the issue.

What would be the percentage of young men, out of the total population of young men in a city, who would mean me harm on a darkened, deserted street?

The exact percentage doesn't much matter. The fact is that enough of them would for me to form a generalized opinion.

Of COURSE that doesn't mean I believe that all young men in the city, or even a fourth of them, or even one in one hundred, would mean me harm. What it DOES mean is that I've just "stereotyped" young men when I lock my doors.

Or - maybe it just means I have the common sense to know that SOME young men are dangerous. SOME gay men act effiminately. These men have contributed to a stereotype of gay men. That's not my fault and I'm not taking the heat for it.

I also don't assume that most gay men act that way. In fact, the gay men I know who are my friends make fun of those men who act stereotypically gay. They themselves acknowledge the stereotype and use it themselves.

 

[Jainarayan]

Skirting the issue.

No, it's not. You said "a good proportion". You can't know that.

In fact, the gay men I know who are my friends make fun of those men who act stereotypically gay. They themselves acknowledge the stereotype and use it themselves.

Doesn't make it right or funny.

 

[painted wolf]

Stereotypes requite people willing to perpetuate them.

wa:do

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, it's not. You said "a good proportion". You can't know that.

In fact, the gay men I know who are my friends make fun of those men who act stereotypically gay. They themselves acknowledge the stereotype and use it themselves.

Doesn't make it right or funny.

I find it quite hysterical, especially as of late, people here fight alot of phrases that have different meanings and sizes to different people. How much is a few even? To me it's about four, but to some its three, or even seven or eight. Myself, I think a "good portion" could be around 25%. But are such vague terms worth taking cheap stabs over? Granted to many people though it does seem like most gay men are effeminate just because those are the ones they notice. It doesn't make it right, it's just a very common error in causes by a limited perception that people are prone to making.

 

[Averroes]

Seriously? Having short hair, wearing pants and not walking with a slinky hip wiggle mean I'm a guy? Or that I'm trying to take on the mans gender role?

Should I get out of the lab and into the kitchen too?

I'm only expressing my female "gender role" looking like this?

or like this:

I suppose men in tights, frilly shirts and foofy wigs are being "feminine" then?

that's so gay!

wa:do

Sigh...

There is an obvious difference between dressing "Tom Boyish" and proclaiming to be homosexual yet play the part of either a male or female. Hence the term "butch female." You are not gay unless you consider yourself gay that is not my point. My point is this woman who is obviously homosexual too offense because she was called "sir" yet, from a visual look she does look like a guy.

My point is there are homosexuals who obviously don't desire the opposite sex. If that is the case MY continuing question is why model yourself as the opposite sex? Why does a butch lesbian use the men's restroom when she doesn't have a penis to use the urinals? Why does a butchblesbian with no gender identity issues cut their hair off, wear tank tops and take on a masculine behavior?

The only answer I see thus far is patriarchal socialization. Not gender identity disorder purely a behavior influenced by society. I guess this is a question best asked for someone herr who is gay and love the lifestyle.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The only answer I see thus far is patriarchal socialization. Not gender identity disorder purely a behavior influenced by society. I guess this is a question best asked for someone herr who is gay and love the lifestyle.

Actually transsexuals have been noted in many cultures, including matriarchal societies. And there are far more gender expressions than just male and female. Many people do not identify as either. Some are masculine women, some are effeminate men, and either group can have people that are homosexual and heterosexual. Our society simply has an extremely limited scope on the very broad spectrum of gender identity. And where else in nature will you find such a black and white, one-or-the-other, and arbitrary issue that is our two sided vision of gender?
As far as transsexual's having a "disorder" is concerned, it is only a disorder to a transsexual struggling with their identify because it fits the description. It does cause a great deal of distress, it does interfere with living a normal life, and they are also of a high-risk suicide group. Culture has nothing to do with it, but a biology that says you not the person you are living as. Sorta like a mid-life crisis, only much more severe.
However it is culture that does define gender. Anything that is considered masculine, feminine, or neutral is subject to the thoughts of any given society at any given time. But it only tells you how to act, not which one to identify as.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Just a quick mention, I do dislike it when gay men are so anti-femme. I find it quite a turn off myself, especially when I grew up knowing an effeminate gay, and he was a nice friend of mine before we lost contact with each other.

It's just another form of discrimination within the homosexual community itself.

 

[painted wolf]

Sigh...

There is an obvious difference between dressing "Tom Boyish" and proclaiming to be homosexual yet play the part of either a male or female. Hence the term "butch female." You are not gay unless you consider yourself gay that is not my point. My point is this woman who is obviously homosexual too offense because she was called "sir" yet, from a visual look she does look like a guy.

My point is there are homosexuals who obviously don't desire the opposite sex. If that is the case MY continuing question is why model yourself as the opposite sex? Why does a butch lesbian use the men's restroom when she doesn't have a penis to use the urinals? Why does a butchblesbian with no gender identity issues cut their hair off, wear tank tops and take on a masculine behavior?

The only answer I see thus far is patriarchal socialization. Not gender identity disorder purely a behavior influenced by society. I guess this is a question best asked for someone herr who is gay and love the lifestyle.

Maybe they just like to wind people obsessed with "gender roles" up? It apparently works quite well.

I know a lot of "butch" lesbians and I've never met one that used the men's bathroom. Not sober anyway.

wa:do

* I should add I've known strait men who enjoyed wearing skirts (not kilts bur women's skirts) in public simply because they thought they were comfortable and they loved to "rile up prudes" by pushing gender boundaries.

 

[Jainarayan]

Granted to many people though it does seem like most gay men are effeminate just because those are the ones they notice.

That was exactly my point. :yes: People think that all gay men are like those you'd see at a gay pride parade... leather jockstraps, pink feather boas, purple taffeta (no one ever said all gay men have good taste ). I'm as gay as a picnic basket, but at face value most people don't know it.

Worth fighting over? Yes and no. The yes is that those stereotypes need to be dispelled. The no is that it is admittedly stupid; it should never come to stereotyping. But then again, I am naive.

 

[Jainarayan]

Just a quick mention, I do dislike it when gay men are so anti-femme. I find it quite a turn off myself, especially when I grew up knowing an effeminate gay, and he was a nice friend of mine before we lost contact with each other.

It's just another form of discrimination within the homosexual community itself.

Internalized homophobia some gay guys like to call it. I'm secure enough in my homosexuality that if a guy is attractive to me, physically and mentally, I don't care if it's "See Tarzan, hear Jane". At the risk of using a pejorative myself, I think "muscle marys" are particularly hot.

 

[Averroes]

Maybe they just like to wind people obsessed with "gender roles" up? It apparently works quite well.

I know a lot of "butch" lesbians and I've never met one that used the men's bathroom. Not sober anyway.

wa:do

* I should add I've known strait men who enjoyed wearing skirts (not kilts bur women's skirts) in public simply because they thought they were comfortable and they loved to "rile up prudes" by pushing gender boundaries.

So because I start a discussion about homosexuality and gender roles I am now obsessed? Hmmm how intelligent you are and presumptuous. Well as for the butch lesbians you know that is your experience. I jusy know what I've seen and San Francisco being the so-called "gay capital" a lot of these behaviors are very much present. As for the restroom thing I admit, its one incident so I don't include that as a truth about homosexual behavior.

As for the men wearing skirts, you don't have to be a prude to know that, that is bizarre. Yeah that is my opinion.

 

[Drolefille]

Gender roles are distinct from sexual orientation are distinct from gender identity. One can be a transgendered MTF butch lesbian or a cisgendered feminine straight man.

Color coded to show the difference.

As for why you may see more varient gender expressions in the LGBT community it has to do with it being more accepted by the community. There are 'butch' women who are straight, but the majority society doesn't give them space to really be 'butch' and accepted socially. Queer culture is more allowing of it (although it has its own prejudices.) When you're no longer dealing with a required male-female dynamic with expectations about who works, who raises kids who cares so much about who wears skirts and heels vs. pants and ties?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As for the men wearing skirts, you don't have to be a prude to know that, that is bizarre. Yeah that is my opinion.

I don't find it to be bizarre.

 

[Drolefille]

As for the men wearing skirts, you don't have to be a prude to know that, that is bizarre. Yeah that is my opinion.

Ok see, when you express your opinion that men in skirts are bizarre you can say
"I think men in skirts are bizarre" or "I find men in skirts are bizarre."

Saying it as you did presumes a statement of fact, not opinion.

 

[painted wolf]

So because I start a discussion about homosexuality and gender roles I am now obsessed? Hmmm how intelligent you are and presumptuous.

Did I say anything about you in particular?
Either you are very sensitive or you are revealing that you are indeed preoccupied with gender roles. I'll leave you to clear up which one it is or if it's a combination of both.

Well as for the butch lesbians you know that is your experience. I jusy know what I've seen and San Francisco being the so-called "gay capital" a lot of these behaviors are very much present. As for the restroom thing I admit, its one incident so I don't include that as a truth about homosexual behavior.

San Fran may have been at one time... it's just a slogan now.

As for the men wearing skirts, you don't have to be a prude to know that, that is bizarre. Yeah that is my opinion.

He had the cutest curly hair he wore in pigtails too... it was a nice compliment to the army boots.
And it was only as bizarre as you let it be.

I suppose kilts are bizarre too?

wa:do

 

[Averroes]

I don't find it to be bizarre.

Agreed.

I have been socialized differently than you. I find it bizarre because its atypical amongst the males I associate myself with.

 

[Averroes]

Did I say anything about you in particular?
Either you are very sensitive or you are revealing that you are indeed preoccupied with gender roles. I'll leave you to clear up which one it is or if it's a combination of both.

San Fran may have been at one time... it's just a slogan now.

He had the cutest curly hair he wore in pigtails too... it was a nice compliment to the army boots.
And it was only as bizarre as you let it be.

I suppose kilts are bizarre too?

wa:do

I said that cause your response was after mine.....duh lol

as far as kilts its not wierd since its apart of a culture. Men wearing mini skirts in America is atypical wear at least among men I know (and men you know)

 

[Averroes]

Gender roles are distinct from sexual orientation are distinct from gender identity. One can be a transgendered MTF butch lesbian or a cisgendered feminine straight man.

Color coded to show the difference.

As for why you may see more varient gender expressions in the LGBT community it has to do with it being more accepted by the community. There are 'butch' women who are straight, but the majority society doesn't give them space to really be 'butch' and accepted socially. Queer culture is more allowing of it (although it has its own prejudices.) When you're no longer dealing with a required male-female dynamic with expectations about who works, who raises kids who cares so much about who wears skirts and heels vs. pants and ties?

Its really unnecessary to color code anything I know the difference. What it boils down to from the opinions I have seen here is a type of behavioral synthesis. Lesbian women taking on cultural attitudes of men and gay men taking on cultural attitudes of women.