homosexual

[allright]

So I guess that means there will only be Christians in Heaven, everyone else goes to Hell? Now that really sounds like something a Loving and Caring God would do to his creation? :sarcastic

You want a love that excuses evil, God offers a love that forgives a person if hes willing to repent.
Why should he forgive those who want evil and dont want to repent.

 

[Monotheist 101]

There isn't just the nurture part, which is what the general consensus among people who actually study that sort of thing (psychiatrist, psychologist, geneticists, biologists, etc.) is; both nature and nurture play a role in it. There has even been a deal of research put into fraternal twins and even birth order of siblings into finding genetic roles, while some studies have indicated a possible link between the amount of stress a mother is subjected to during pregnancy and preticting the sexuality of the offspring, the prediction being that high amounts of stress has produced groups with higher rates of homosexuality that pulls merit towards the nurture part of the debate.
To be honest about it, it's such a complicated and in-depth subject that you could easily fill a small library with nothing but books and journals written about the subject of sexuality and how it develops. There are even entire research institutes are dedicated to studying it.
You can have your opinion, but I will stick with my facts that have been empirically gathered, retested, peer-reviewed, and are backed by decades of credible research, not a small group of Freudian psychiatrists who are apparently oblivious to the fact Freud has been mostly and thoroughly debunked and discredited.
I have also done alot of research into the subject myself, and to say that it is wrong to say it isn't a choice is a statement that very easily proven wrong with just six words. Did you chose your own sexuality?

Hey dont get me wrong I have nothing against homosexuals but I believe that it is mostly nurture and the situation a kid is brought up that determines his/her sexuality. Why do straight men in jail hump eachother? They weren't born that way?

I was molested when I was 5 years old, I had alot of homosexual urges growing up.. I learned to control them, I can come across as a bit gay sometimes..I see it as me being in touch with my feminine side..Ying Yang, the balance between female and male energy..the scales tip in the favor of me being straight because I have a pair of balls and a weener..Flat out if I had to choose between a guy and a girl, I would always choose the girl.

I believe that everything in life has a purpose..I donot see the purpose behind "homosex" (as the OP put it lol) other than fulfilling our worldly desire..lust etc. But then again these are my experiences and my opinion on the subject, alot of people might disagree.

To the person that didnt understand what I qouted from the Quran..When you have looked into world scriptures and religions in as much detail as I have and If you are open to having faith (believing in something that you cant see or prove), maybe you will regard the Quran in its original arabic as a divinely revealed scripture..until then your opinion does not matter to me...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why should he forgive those who want evil and dont want to repent.

Because if he is there, he hasn't made it obvious that he is. Rather when I look out into the world and the universe, I see more reasons to think he is not there than he is.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Sodom and Gomorrah? Seriously?

I simply cannot understand the mentality of someone who considers the problem with a story of threatened same-sex gang rape to be the "same-sex" part and not the "gang rape" part. If you really do believe this, I think you should do some serious reflection about whether your moral sense can be trusted.

I donot know if you are aware of the fact the "same-sex" "group-sex" is more common ..how many straight couples have you met who are up for groupsex? compare these numbers in contrast to those of the homosexual population.

I honestly donot care if you understand my "mentality", couldnt care less bro. You read it yet you donot understand it, its not the texts fault, its your own..you do not want to understand it...Anyways peace on you, dont bother trying to understand me..Im just another brick in the wall, why worry yourself with something so minimal

 

[allright]

Because if he is there, he hasn't made it obvious that he is. Rather when I look out into the world and the universe, I see more reasons to think he is not there than he is.

If you sincerely want to know if he is real, ask him to show you his real.

Before I became a Christian I spent years wondering if Jesus ever even existed

 

[Monotheist 101]

If you sincerely want to know if he is real, ask him to show you his real.

Before I became a Christian I spent years wondering if Jesus ever even existed

Its not about him physically showing himself to people..If a person is willing to have faith in a creator or higher power..with that belief I think he can see God in everything around him..the perfect laws of nature..the miracle of life (who has been able to replicate it?, the closest thing we have are some weird stories of a frankenstien), what is the soul? Is there a soul?

I think these questions are easier to answer when a person has faith..I refuse to believe that my purpose in life is to finish Uni get a good job make a lot of money have kids and watch the cycle repeat itself till infinity..I do have a higher purpose, this life is but a test. I choose to live it as selflessly as I can. We are born alone and we die alone, Im not taking any of my material possessions, my wealth or kids to my grave with me..Its just one of the mysteries of life, no one can come back from the dead and tell us if we were wrong or right..I choose to have faith, everyone has this choice. Its a gamble that I think is worth taking.

 

[9Westy9]

If you sincerely want to know if he is real, ask him to show you his real.

Before I became a Christian I spent years wondering if Jesus ever even existed

Been there, done that. He was, not surprisingly, silent

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I donot know if you are aware of the fact the "same-sex" "group-sex" is more common ..how many straight couples have you met who are up for groupsex? compare these numbers in contrast to those of the homosexual population.

What does that matter? Do you think that the number of people doing something is relevant to whether it should be allowed?

I honestly donot care if you understand my "mentality", couldnt care less bro. You read it yet you donot understand it, its not the texts fault, its your own..you do not want to understand it...Anyways peace on you, dont bother trying to understand me..Im just another brick in the wall, why worry yourself with something so minimal

When you argue that the story of Sodom - i.e. a story of (attempted) rape - matters when we talk about consensual activity, then you're implicitly arguing that rape is acceptable.

Do you really think that rape is okay?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you sincerely want to know if he is real, ask him to show you his real.

I asked about ten years ago. What should I think of his lack of showing himself to me?

Its not about him physically showing himself to people..If a person is willing to have faith in a creator or higher power..with that belief I think he can see God in everything around him..the perfect laws of nature..the miracle of life (who has been able to replicate it?, the closest thing we have are some weird stories of a frankenstien), what is the soul? Is there a soul?

I am the type who cannot believe without evidence. And because God allegedly condemns the person I am, I see no reason to believe.

 

[allright]

I asked about ten years ago. What should I think of his lack of showing himself to me?


Maybe he wants to see if you really want to know enough to keep asking

 

[Brickjectivity]

Try taking a beginners Bible course. God is calling Judah Sodom in Ezekiel 16.
"Your younger sister who dwells to the South of you is Sodom" Ezekiel 16:48
He saying what Judah where doing in verse 49 was just as evil in his eyes as the sexual sin in Sodom.

You are inventing it. Did you even read Ezekiel 16:49? Let me quote it for you:

 Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

No, that isn't conclusive; but it is part of the whole story. The evil of Sodom was slavery. In the first place Sodom's wickedness is expressly not stated as sex by Ezekiel, even if he is using it to talk about Judah. It is arrogance, fat, unconcern and not helping the poor. The most relevant passages about Sodom's evils are Genesis 13:13 and Genesis 14:23. It says "the people of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD." Then it shows how Abraham refused to accept slaves from the king of Sodom. Slavery was Sodom's great evil.

Note that in Genesis 14:23 it mentions the 'Thong of a sandal'. I guess this is one of those passages that are left out of your Beginners Bible course. Have you ever gone barefoot? Slaves do all the time, because it helps keep them under control.

No matter how old you are when it comes to the Bible you are the beginner, and you had best revise your attitude towards homosexuals if you intend to honour the Bible and the spirit in which it was written. How fabulously off the mark it is to think God would be more concerned with the interaction of two body parts than with the subjugation of one persons will over another.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You want a love that excuses evil, God offers a love that forgives a person if hes willing to repent.
Why should he forgive those who want evil and dont want to repent.

Grew up Christian in the Catholic Church. In my college years I was part of the charismatic element of the Campus Crusade for Christ. I struggled since I was a little girl with my own orientation as a bisexual, and there was no rest for me praying and begging to change to being straight.

I didn't even KNOW there was such a thing as bisexuality when I was a teenager, so for years I just simply thought I was sick and disgusting. And I prayed and prayed and prayed for strength, for clarity, for forgiveness because this was considered a weakness of mine.

My actual experience when I shed that guilt was when I was in love with a man and when I was in love with a woman, both scenarios were glorious, wonderful, uplifting, life-affirming, and true.

Decades of asking for peace and forgiveness from God through Jesus left me feeling utterly alone, ugly, unloved, and a monstrosity. I didn't know any other bisexuals (I thought people were either gay or straight, period). And that perspective coupled with teaching after teaching about how homosexuality is an abomination, evil, and is as bad as raping a child, left me nearly with a gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger.

My views on what God means has changed since that pivotal moment when I was ready to take my own life. It was a long painful journey separating myself from a community that promised to care for me and protect me, yet wound up causing more grief than not. Once I discovered Zen Buddhism in my 20's, I let go of the bitterness toward the Christian community and forgave my past.

I also accepted my orientation as healthy and normal. I accepted that my orientation was not sick, disgusting, or evil. And finally I accepted that if a God out there after my death got really mad at me because I was okay with my orientation, He/She just really really really needs a hug. :rainbow1:

 

[Brickjectivity]

Not to interrupt you, but there is a little more information to put out about the atrocity against homosexuals and twisting of Bible verses. The 'Thong' of the sandel or the 'Shoelatchet' depending upon the version of Bible being read, comes from the Hebrew root word pronounced like (na'al), and it literally means Lock or Bolt. This is no coincidence, and the problem with Sodom is its slavery franchise. It is not ambiguous. A few other relevant passages in the Pentateuch have already been discussed, such as the one about men sleeping with men etc. I'm only mentioning this particular one in connection to the above 'Conversation' which actually is a lecture. The problem with Sodom was that it didn't care about people, took slaves etc. This was the same problem the USA had until recently, and we are still paying a heavy price for it. The churches here were so far off from sound Biblical knowledge, that they occasionally endorsed or OK stamped slavery; and the twisting of these particular scriptures about Sodom helped enable that.

 

[BeeBooga]

[/LIST]Yes, it is. You are greatly mistaken. Jesus deos not even conden remarriage if your former spouse is still alive.

Homosexuality is bestiality. I understand that the animals have homosexual sex. This kind of sex is not holy. Jesus commands His followers to be holy.

The act of sex between a man and a man can still be holy and spiritual the way it is with a man and a woman. There is still love, there is still kindness and passion and in animals this isn't seen (but a select few). It is a human act of either passion or love. Re marrying does not have anything to do with homosexuality.
Comparing homosexual intercourse to beastiality just shows how ignorant you are of that area.

However, you are right about him being wrong.

In Christianity or Paulism?

• In Christianity it's not a sin.
• In Paulism it is.
• Paulism is not Christianity by any stretch of the imagination.

Game, set, match.

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

And most notable

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

And there are many more examples of why you are wrong within the bible which you should give another once over. (No offence of course )

 

[BeeBooga]

Nope, you are mistaken. Jesus says we can divorce in case of adultery but He never said we can remarry. If we do we are committing another adultery.

You are wrong, re read your bible please.

Matt. 5:32, "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery".

except sexual immorality

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Monotheist 101]

What does that matter? Do you think that the number of people doing something is relevant to whether it should be allowed?


When you argue that the story of Sodom - i.e. a story of (attempted) rape - matters when we talk about consensual activity, then you're implicitly arguing that rape is acceptable.

Do you really think that rape is okay?

Why are you twisting the words..maybe you donot understand what is being said...In no way is it encouraging rape..instead it is saying that what they did was morally wrong..including the "homosex" bit let me explain, for the intellectually challenged who let their emotions cloud their judgment (youve already made up your mind..thats why you twist what is being said)

7.80 We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

It is specifically referring to the act of "homosex" or homosexuality in that verse.


[15.61] So when the messengers (Angels in the form of Handsome Men) came to Lut's followers,
This verse is quite self explanatory

[15.62] He said: Surely you are an unknown people.
Lot didnt recognize the messengers as one of his towns people

[15.63] They said: Nay, we have come to you with that about which they disputed.
We have come as a sign. Regarding the matter which concerns your people.

[15.64] And we have come to you with the truth, and we are most surely truthful.
We have come to you with God ruling on the matter..with the truth

[15.65] Therefore go forth with your followers in a part of the night and yourself follow their rear, and let not any one of you turn round, and go forth whither you are commanded.
Gave them a time to escape from the town and warned them not to look back.

[15.66] And We revealed to him this decree, that the roots of these shall be cut off in the morning.
The roots of the problem would be cut off...so the tree does not grow and spread(implying that it is not a favourable thing)

[15.67] And the people of the town came rejoicing.
The homosexual population of the town came rejoicing..at the sight of the handsome male visitors.
[15.68] He said: Surely these are my guests, therefore do not disgrace me,
pretty self explanatory

[15.69] And guard against (the punishment of) Allah and do not put me to shame.
same as above

[15.70] They said: Have we not forbidden you from (other) people?
The homosexuals argued that "we havent stopped you from having sexual relations with other people"

[15.71] He said: These are my daughters, if you will do (aught). (He offered his daughters, hoping that people of the town would leave his male guests alone)
I already added what in the brackets..but let me be clear when I say it does not imply he said "gangbang" my daughters..he said that my daughters are a better choice for you.

[15.72] By your life! they were blindly wandering on in their intoxication.
They were driven by lust and worldly desire..a minutes worth of an orgasmic sensation..in the bum

[15.73] So the rumbling overtook them (while) entering upon the time of sunrise;
So the natural disaster took place at dawn..

[15.74] Thus did We turn it upside down, and rained down upon them stones of what had been decreed.
Hinting at earthquakes and storms of some kind

[15.75] Surely in this are signs for those who examine.
You should look up into archealogical sites linked to Soddom and Gommorah..most of them show scientific traces of natural disasters taking place..



No where in the narrative does the Quran encourage gang rape...How did you jump to that conclusion..another aspect of the Quran which you might never understand is, the duality of its meaning is lost when translated to another language..it loses its literary value, the Quran is beautiful poetry/prose which is yet to be replicated (in terms of poetic value and depth of information being conveyed). We are only left with interpretations/translation of the word of God...which you seem to think is encouraging gang rape..shame on you..how could God encourage rape? What a stupid conclusion to jump to.. It doesnt even state that the people of the town were able to have sex with the visitors or the daughters of Lot...You see what you want to see..I have no interest in replying to your dimwitted posts...questioning my morality based on the fact that I qouted verses from a Holy Book which you will never understand the depth and beauty of.


I hope being staff gives you a sense of pride when going about questioning peoples morality based on verses of something which you will never grasp (due to your lack of faith)..Personally I have no respect for you..If people with good morals twist words like you than.. I dont want "your" morality...

“The difference between my darkness and your darkness is that I can look at my own badness in the face and accept its existence while you are busy covering your mirror with a white linen sheet. The difference between my sins and your sins is that when I sin I know I'm sinning while you have actually fallen prey to your own fabricated illusions. I am a siren, a mermaid; I know that I am beautiful while basking on the ocean's waves and I know that I can eat flesh and bones at the bottom of the sea. You are a white witch, a wizard; your spells are manipulations and your cauldron from hell yet you wrap yourself in white and wear a silver wig.”
― C. JoyBell C.

When you argue that the story of Sodom - i.e. a story of (attempted) rape - matters when we talk about consensual activity

Why do you take it to be attempted rape? why not unwanted, seduction. I think you are interested in Gangrapes, theres plenty of simulations on porn websites for those who are interested in that sort of thing..You dont need to turn everything into gangrape...your obsessions into the reality of everything you percieve....

Peace and God Bless

 

[Brickjectivity]

BeBooga, namaste. With regard to what you said to Jainarayan, actually Jainarayan is pretty spot on. As your title says 'Atheist' and not 'Bible Expert' I don't blame you for absorbing some of the propaganda that has been going about. The verses you posted require some context is all.

• Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." --- to put 'Abomination' into context read Lev 11:12 "Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that [shall be] an abomination unto you. " ---- Notice here that 'Abomination' is not really a big deal unless you are Jewish, and even then its hardly like breaking the ten commandments. Its more of a cultural-no-no like not wearing your black hat.
• Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" --- Here you have switched Bible translations without saying so. The same word 'Abomination' applies. This is pretty much a Jewish only prohibition on par with not eating shellfish.

And most notable

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

A word study on 'Effeminate' reveals that it does not necessarily include all homosexuals. King David could not have been characterized as 'Soft' yet he had a very tight and ambiguous relationship with Jonathan, yet Christians are taught that David had a heart 'After the LORD's own heart'. Perhaps the meaning here 'Soft' is talking about someone who sleeps around. It is unclear, and so its a mistake to be so hard on homosexuals because of this individual verse. Put this together with the fact that men can be naturally homosexual, and we get the image that probably this word 'Soft' or 'Effiminate' is not referring to all homosexuals.

 

[BeeBooga]

BeBooga, namaste. With regard to what you said to Jainarayan, actually Jainarayan is pretty spot on. As your title says 'Atheist' and not 'Bible Expert' I don't blame you for absorbing some of the propaganda that has been going about. The verses you posted require some context is all.

• Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." --- to put 'Abomination' into context read Lev 11:12 "Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that [shall be] an abomination unto you. " ---- Notice here that 'Abomination' is not really a big deal unless you are Jewish, and even then its hardly like breaking the ten commandments. Its more of a cultural-no-no like not wearing your black hat.
• 
  Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" --- Here you have switched Bible translations without saying so. The same word 'Abomination' applies. This is pretty much a Jewish only prohibition on par with not eating shellfish.

A word study on 'Effeminate' reveals that it does not necessarily include all homosexuals. King David could not have been characterized as 'Soft' yet he had a very tight and ambiguous relationship with Jonathan, yet Christians are taught that David had a heart 'After the LORD's own heart'. Perhaps the meaning here 'Soft' is talking about someone who sleeps around. It is unclear, and so its a mistake to be so hard on homosexuals because of this individual verse. Put this together with the fact that men can be naturally homosexual, and we get the image that probably this word 'Soft' or 'Effiminate' is not referring to all homosexuals.

I don't think I really stated all homosexuals but its kind of odd, don't you think, that some homosexuals are okay and others aren't? Unless you wish to explain further.

I didn't know which translation in which he was reading, so I kind of jumped around at any rate for a wider variety, I didn't know that wasn't allowed.

Also, are you telling me every sentence with the word abomination refers to that, and that it can't be the other meaning of the word... that seems kind of lost on me. It'd be very limiting to out one word for meaning something unclear....

also this propaganda you are referring to is kind of mistaken, since it is a bible at any rate, even if it isn't yours...

 

[Monotheist 101]

T

I asked about ten years ago. What should I think of his lack of showing himself to me?


I am the type who cannot believe without evidence. And because God allegedly condemns the person I am, I see no reason to believe.

Than you may disbelieve forever...IMO no one till the end of time will be able to provide scientific proof about the existence of God. The whole concept of faith is believing without seeing.

If you expect God to manifest himself and physically reveal or talk to you than you think you are superior than the billions of others..why should God talk to you? What makes you special?

I hold the opinion that the Uncreated (God) will never become part of his Creation. Almost every religion I have looked up holds this core belief either in the form of a manifestation (Jesus), Most other religions derive their concepts from greek and hindu pantheism where everything is considered a part of God..in other words God is the creation. or the creation was created from God (physical body of God) not by Him.


You are wrong in thinking that God condemns you for the person you are..this life is a test..everyone is tested in his/her own unique way..I think the purpose for why we have been made in pairs (even atoms have pairs. the neutrons and protons) would not be met.

I dont think there is anything wrong with having homosexual emotions..It is quite easy to mistake brotherly love or bromance for homosexual feelings.. I love my male best friends more than I love my Girlfriend..that doesnt mean I want to use my penis as a shovel and go digging up their behinds.. Being a guy I understand these feelings between Men (it is more of a dominance issue) wonder why the masculine usually pitches and the feminine one is the passive catcher? what I dont understand is how these feelings turn into sexual actions..Everyone has a choice I am not condemning you to hell like most religious fanatics of my faith would do given half the chance..I personally hold the opinion that God is the Judge the Most Just..If you live your life with pure thoughts and clean intentions..the God I have learnt about is Oft-Forgiving you have nothing to be afraid about..he knows what is in your heart.. He says he will forgive everything except associating partners with him ( the sin of the ancients)..this includes atheism because you are infact placing your faith in this material life and in turn you yourself (ego) becomes your God.

 

[BeeBooga]

BeBooga, namaste. With regard to what you said to Jainarayan, actually Jainarayan is pretty spot on. As your title says 'Atheist' and not 'Bible Expert' I don't blame you for absorbing some of the propaganda that has been going about. The verses you posted require some context is all.

• Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." --- to put 'Abomination' into context read Lev 11:12 "Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that [shall be] an abomination unto you. " ---- Notice here that 'Abomination' is not really a big deal unless you are Jewish, and even then its hardly like breaking the ten commandments. Its more of a cultural-no-no like not wearing your black hat.
• Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" --- Here you have switched Bible translations without saying so. The same word 'Abomination' applies. This is pretty much a Jewish only prohibition on par with not eating shellfish.

A word study on 'Effeminate' reveals that it does not necessarily include all homosexuals. King David could not have been characterized as 'Soft' yet he had a very tight and ambiguous relationship with Jonathan, yet Christians are taught that David had a heart 'After the LORD's own heart'. Perhaps the meaning here 'Soft' is talking about someone who sleeps around. It is unclear, and so its a mistake to be so hard on homosexuals because of this individual verse. Put this together with the fact that men can be naturally homosexual, and we get the image that probably this word 'Soft' or 'Effiminate' is not referring to all homosexuals.

I also feel like you're saying my knowledge on the subject is limited due to my atheist belief system.