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Homosexual Marriages (Again)
- Thread starter Khale
- Start date
jewscout
Religious Zionist
...then you gotta get into what necessarily defines homosexual sex in halachah...
cause, if you wanna get technical, i don't believe lesbianism falls into said category
but then i'm not a rabbi so don't quote me on that one, just basing this on what i've been told by others so i am by far not an authority on halachah
cause, if you wanna get technical, i don't believe lesbianism falls into said category
but then i'm not a rabbi so don't quote me on that one, just basing this on what i've been told by others so i am by far not an authority on halachah
pdoel
Active Member
I'd be more than happy to debate what scripture says. However, from my experience in the past on debating this issue, those against homosexual marriage only want to look at passages that say homosexuality is wrong.Binyamin said:
They completely ignore the new testament where God says ALL who believe in Jesus will be forgiven and have life everlasting.
They completely ignore all the other sins that God speaks of in the old testament. They pick and choose WHICH rules to abide, and which to throw out the window.
From my stance, if you are going to use the Bible as a way of saying something is wrong, then you can't ignore everything else in the Bible.
If you want to say that homosexuality is wrong and use the Bible as your proof. Then you better be ready to stand up and fight against Divorce, women speaking in Church, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., . . . .
Deut 13:1
Well-Known Member
Okay, and why would we look elsewhere when figuring out if homosexual acts are permissible?pdoel said:
Yes, well, luckily for you and I, I ignore the whole NT.pdoel said:
Really? Which sins do you think I ignore??? I mean, I do love my polyester...pdoel said:
Here's a list of all 613. http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
And what do you think I'm ignoring? Again, refer to the list. http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htmpdoel said:
Divorce happens, it's not something that is encouraged, but maybe you should aquaint yourself with what the TNK and the Talmud say on divorce, it's even meant for beginners. http://www.jewfaq.org/divorce.htmpdoel said:
Well, as I never enter a church, I think I'm safe on the latter requirement. Anything else?
pdoel
Active Member
So, your only source of reference is a book written thousands of years ago by man, and translated many times over into different religions, and in trying to keep up with modern times? Most can't even agree to the translations. But you are so certain that you are willing to trust in what other men have written and translated? Wow are you trusting.Binyamin said:
As for your ignoring the NT. That's fine by you. But for me, my faith tells me otherwise. While I do enjoy reading the Bible and think there's a lot to learn from it. It's my faith that truely drives me. My faith tells me that Christ is my Savior. My faith tells me that if I believe in Christ, I can be saved.
Divorce, according to my Bible, is strictly forbidden. Divorcing and remarrying is considered adultery. Plain and simple. I've debated homosexual marriage with many people who insist on using the Bible as their reference. Yet, these same people have actually been divorced and remarried themselves. How convenient.
Now, the fact that you are referencing Jewish Law, and I'm discussing religion in terms of Christianity, it brings up another good point. If we were to make our laws based on religion, who's do we use? Do we go with the Christian laws of a loving God? Or the Jewish laws of a more vengeful God? Do we go with laws where we believe we are saved and should follow Christ's teachings? Or should we setup laws that forbid the belief in Christ?
That's the danger of using a Bible or any religious reasoning when defining our laws.
pdoel
Active Member
Ok. A few questions.Binyamin said:
Have you ever borrowed on interest? If so, you are a sinner (Deut. 23:20)
Have you always fulfilled everything you've uttered? If not, you are a sinner. (Deut. 23:24)
Have you made a parapet for your roof? If not, you are a sinner. (Deut. 22:8)
Have you ever left anything that could cause harm? If so, you are a sinner. (Deut. 22:8)
Have you ever coveted what belongs to another? If so, you are a sinner. (Ex. 20:14)
Have you ever craved what belongs to another? If so, you are a sinner. (Deut. 5:18)
Do you love all gentiles? If not, you are a sinner. (Deut. 10:19)
Have you ever wronged a stranger in speech? If so, you are a sinner. (Ex. 22:20)
How many children do you have? If you don't have a ton, you're probably sinning. As Gen. 1:28 says you should be fruitful and mulitply.
If your wife asks for $5,000 for a new wardrobe, would you say no? If so, you are sinning according the Ex. 21:10 "Not to withhold food, clothing or conjugal rights from a wife."
Deut 13:1
Well-Known Member
What makes you think I bother reading translation(s)???pdoel said:
Okay, I'm happy for you.pdoel said:
There are exceptions to this rule in every Christian denominatoin I know of, one of which would be if you were forced into the marriage, IE: not a choice.pdoel said:
pdoel said:
I don't see G-d as vengeful...pdoel said:
You do whatever you want. The TNK has a set of laws that are meant for everyone, IE: you, a gentile.pdoel said:
Still don't see it.pdoel said:
Deut 13:1
Well-Known Member
A few answers.pdoel said:
20. You shall not give interest to your brother, [whether it be] interest on money, interest on food or interest on any [other] item for which interest is [normally] taken.pdoel said:
Compare this with Leviticus 25:35-37
35. If your brother becomes destitute and his hand falters beside you, you shall support him [whether] a convert or a resident, so that he can live with you.
36. You shall not take from him interest or increase, and you shall fear your God, and let your brother live with you.
37. You shall not give him your money with interest, nor shall you give your food with increase.
I know this is sooo hard for someone at your level of understanding the text, but let's look 2 verses up to see what this is talking about.pdoel said:
Duet 23:22-24
22. When you make a vow to the Lord, your God, you shall not delay in paying it, for the Lord, your God, will demand it of you, and it will be [counted as] a sin for you.
23. But if you shall refrain from making vows, you will have no sin.
24. Observe and do what is emitted from your lips just as you have pledged to the Lord, your God, as a donation, which you have spoken with your mouth.
Now, the idea being that when you pledge sometime to G-d, you better fullfil it. It's also important to try your best to fullfill what you say you will do, but no, I'm not perfect, nor claim to be.
Duet 22:8. When you build a new house, you shall make a guard rail for your roof, so that you shall not cause blood [to be spilled] in your house, that the one who falls should fall from it [the roof].pdoel said:
As I don't own my house, this doesn't apply to me.
Rashi says this: "That one [who would fall] deserves to fall [to his death on account of his sins]; nevertheless, you should not be the one to bring about his death, for meritorious things are executed through meritorious people, while things of ill-fortune are executed through guilty people. [Sifrei 22:68]"pdoel said:
Again, doesn't apply.
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, or whatever belongs to your neighbor."pdoel said:
The whole concept being not to take from someone else intentionally, but I have taken something that I thought I had permission to borrow. It was a misunderstanding on both people's parts.
Although, again, where do I claim to be perfect?
Again:pdoel said:
18. And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor shall you desire your neighbor's house, his field, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
19. You shall love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.pdoel said:
It simply means don't appraoch others with your defects.
I've failed that several times, but I'm far from perfect, I do try to adhere to it.
20. And you shall not mistreat a stranger, nor shall you oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.pdoel said:
Where do you see "speech"?
Well, at least you're now guessing. :bounce It also says not to have sex outside of marriage. Do you propose that I should fullfill this mitzvah by committing a sin?pdoel said:
10.If he takes another [wife] for himself, he shall not diminish her sustenance, her clothing, or her marital relations.pdoel said:
Okay, so if I decide to get a second wife, which you SHOULD know as someone with such an 'extensive' knowledge of the Torah that it is halachilly impossible thanks to Gershom ben Judah who put polygamy under a gezerah.
Sometime important to note which you obviously lack the understanding to figure out on your own is that I am making the assertion that the laws still apply today, every single one of them, including the ones about homosexuality; just because I can't follow them perfectly doesn't mean it's out the window. No one can follow them perfectly, not Moshe, and most certainly not, Mr. J. The idea is to follow the Law as best as you can.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Hi Longbowshooter,longbowshooter said:
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Deut 13:1
Well-Known Member
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/t1053.htmpdoel said:
Yea okay, maybe you'd like to address the points I made about plural's being translated as singular forms of verbs/nouns. That is... if you even know what what book/chapter I opened it too.
Also, I take it from your lack of response, you've conceded the debate?
pdoel
Active Member
Not at all. In fact, I found your responses not worthy of continueing the debate.Binyamin said:
As I pointed out, these books were written thousands of years ago, in languages no longer used. Many translations have occurred since then. Not only to translate them into other languages, but also in keeping with the changes in language since that time.
But as far as using scripture to say why homosexuality is wrong. From what you are saying, you do not Sin. I guess you are above all other humans? It's always been my understanding that we're all sinners. We're born with Sin, and even the best of us sin throughout our lives.
So, if it is your stance that you do not sin, and that you have the original edition of the Bible, and know exactly what it all means, well, then that's rather astounding.
Otherwise, I have no choice but to again call . . .
Deut 13:1
Well-Known Member
Uh-huh. So by pointing out what the verse actually says, it wasn't worth responding? For the record, I have zero respect for your biblical interpretation.pdoel said:
So... Hebrew is no longer used??? Also, are you familiar with the Hebrew language? Or are you just guessing that there are changes in language?pdoel said:
No, I didn't say that, in fact, I said this:pdoel said:
So I would contend that you still lack the understanding to decipher this message, so what word(s) do you not understand?Binyamin said:
So my stand was NEVER that I don't sin, it's that I do sin, but that ALL the laws are still apllicable, including homosexuality.pdoel said:
Well, as I said, you're lack of knowledge about the TNK is stretching father then my imagination could possibly go. So, instead of waving around a cute little animated image, why don't you read what I said, so we can actually have a debate.pdoel said:
That is not a proper sentence. It is not even a coherent thought. There's a lesson here.pdoel said:
You are so intensely invested in validating yourself that you are making a mockery of rational conversation. So, for example, your chatter about translations is worthless noise: I know of no translation of the OT that renders Leviticus favorable towards homosexuality. I know of no translation of the NT that renders Paul favorable towards homosexuality.
The answer is not one of putting words in Binyamin's mouth, but in coming to grips with what's true: either (a) you are flawed or (b) your Bible is flawed. I vote (b). You vote as you wish ...
Deut 13:1
Well-Known Member
Hey Duet, I think I found the bible he uses...Deut. 10:19 said:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39114
He even has a thicker beard then me.A brand-new translation of the Bible praised by Britain's archbishop of Canterbury, that nations senior Christian voice flatly contradicts traditional core Christian beliefs on sex and morality.
Titled "Good as New," the new Bible is translated by former Baptist minister John Henson for the "One" organization, to produce what the group calls a "new, fresh and adventurous" translation of the Christian scriptures.
Archbishop Rowan Williams
The 104th archbishop of Canerbury, Dr. Rowan Williams leader of the Church of England describes it is a book of "extraordinary power," but admitted many would be startled by its content. "Instead of condemning fornicators, adulterers and 'abusers of themselves with mankind'," says Ruth Gledhill, the London Times religious affairs correspondent, "the new version of his first letter to Corinth has St. Paul advising Christians not to go without sex for too long in case they get 'frustrated.'"
jeffrey
â Ãig Dogâ
Me thinks that if people spent as much energy tending their own cows as they do trying to tend others, this world would be a much happier place. Let gays marry. Let them be happy, and spend the energy you spend on trying to pass your beliefs onto others on your own family. Everyone can then do the happy dance.