Ho hum, another day, another mass shooting in the US.

[Enoch07]

The fact that heavy restrictions on firearms have been implemented successfully in many countries shows that it is a practical solution.

Not really. The U.K had banned guns. Guess what happend? Knife crime is through the roof, now they are considering banning knifes. The cycle won't end until your tackle the root off why people resort to violence, not the methods of which they use to do the violence.

You want to treat the a symptom, not the diease.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not really. The U.K had banned guns. Guess what happend? Knife crime is through the roof, now they are considering banning knifes. The cycle won't end until your tackle the root off why people resort to violence, not the methods of which they use to do the violence.

You want to treat the a symptom, not the diease.

Homicide rates per 100,000:
- USA: 5.30
- UK: 1.20

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

Seems like the British approach has actually treated the disease. Not cured, but definitely treated.

 

[oldbadger]

That's because your a gun ban person.

In your particular case? A good idea, maybe.

You are not interested in offering any practical solutions.

No? Mandatory Training courses, Tests, Crim Checks, Psycho-evals, 3rd Party Insurance, Home security checks, Home Safes, regular reviews.
I've written that list a few times..... don't mind repeating it.

Still not a single suggestion on how to slow/stop the criminals from obtaining weapons.

Any uninsured gun found is seized and destroyed.
Holder fined or worse.

Anyways if your done with the childish ad hominem and personal attack I'll move on then.

What? No reply from me?
You know you couldn't survive a conflict management course. Your attitude would be your worst enemy all the way through. That's why you would be so scared of such measures.

 

[oldbadger]

Not really. The U.K had banned guns. Guess what happend? Knife crime is through the roof, now they are considering banning knifes.

Some knives have been banned in UK for half a century.
Knife crime here is a worry, but we don't get 35 deaths a day to knives, not in a month. You get 35 gun killings each day, and about 70 more suicides.
You need to act on that.

The cycle won't end until your tackle the root off why people resort to violence,.....

Well, shouting filthy disgusting insulting language at folks from a car window will cause some, I guess.

 

[Enoch07]

Homicide rates per 100,000:
- USA: 5.30
- UK: 1.20

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

Seems like the British approach has actually treated the disease. Not cured, but definitely treated.

Irrelevant though.

Banning guns doesn't stop criminals in the U.S. from obtaining them.

How do I know?

Because they obtain weapons illegally already. They are not allowed to have them at all. And the weapons they do have are already banned (full auto). Your solution is to make it triple illegal in the hope criminals will voluntarily abide by the law?

Extremely naive approach if I say so.

 

[Enoch07]

In your particular case? A good idea, maybe.

Congratulations on being a tyrant.

I've written that list a few times..... don't mind repeating it.

This list doesn't offer any practical suggestions to slow/stop criminals from having weapons.

Any uninsured gun found is seized and destroyed.

Then replaced 5 seconds later. You done absolutely nothing at all.

You know you couldn't survive a conflict management course.

Easy as pie.

You get 35 gun killings each day,

Yes, mostly from criminals using illegally obtained weapons.

Well, shouting filthy disgusting insulting language at folks from a car window will cause some, I guess.

It is a non violent approach though.

Unless you consider it an assault on the crackheads fee fees? Po lil crackhead.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Irrelevant though.

Banning guns doesn't stop criminals in the U.S. from obtaining them.

How do I know?

Because they obtain weapons illegally already. They are not allowed to have them at all. And the weapons they do have are already banned (full auto).

So like Canada. Weapons flow pretty easily across the border from the US. Criminals can get them if they're willing to pay. Still:

Homicide rates per 100,000:
- USA: 5.30
- Canada: 1.80

Your solution is to make it triple illegal in the hope criminals will voluntarily abide by the law?

Extremely naive approach if I say so.

You think it's naive to expect tried and tested methods used all over the world to work? Give your head a shake.

 

[Enoch07]

Weapons flow pretty easily across the border from the US.

That because the U.S and Canada patrol the borders to keep them secure. A problem Canada doesn't have to deal with like the U.S. concerning Mexico. Further hindered by people like you who don't want us to secure the southern border, yet want to whine about gun violence.

You think it's naive to expect tried and tested methods used all over the world to work? Give your head a shake.

Yes it is because you're not being rational and considering the differences between the countries involved. Your ideas look good on paper but are fruitless when applied to the real world because of the differences not taken into account for.

 

[oldbadger]

Congratulations on being a tyrant.

This list doesn't offer any practical suggestions to slow/stop criminals from having weapons.

Then replaced 5 seconds later. You done absolutely nothing at all.

Easy as pie.

Yes, mostly from criminals using illegally obtained weapons.


It is a non violent approach though.

Unless you consider it an assault on the crackheads fee fees? Po lil crackhead.

I expect that many more dreadful crimes and mass murders will have to take place, most committed by criminals who had obtained their guns legally, before anything is done at all.

You seem to be very prejudiced about folks who need a lot of real help, but to be lost in a world of gun nuttery, and unable to recognise common sense about better gun legislation..

 

[Enoch07]

most committed by criminals who had obtained their guns legally,

This is impossible.

A criminal cannot legally purchase a firearm in the U.S. It is against the law. End of story. You need to get that in your head and understand that.

You seem to be very prejudiced about folks who need a lot of real help

I did help him, by not enabling him.

but to be lost in a world of gun nuttery, and unable to recognise common sense about better gun legislation..

Still no suggestions on how to stop criminals from obtaining weapons illegally.

 

[oldbadger]

This is impossible.

A criminal cannot legally purchase a firearm in the U.S. It is against the law. End of story. You need to get that in your head and understand that.
Still no suggestions on how to stop criminals from obtaining weapons illegally.

Let's try again.......
The folks who are mostly committing mass murders have obtained their guns legally.
You're in denial, is all.

 

[Enoch07]

The folks who are mostly committing mass murders have obtained their guns legally.

Goal post shift but whatevs. I'll prove ya wrong on that too.

Incorrect

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

In 2017 40,000 died by a gun shot.

60% of those 40,000 were suicides which is roughly 24,000.

37% were murders by gun which is roughly 15,000.

373 people died in 2018 due to mass shooters. This is not counting in for gang related murders by criminals who use illegally obtained weapons.

The U.S actually ranks 20th amongst amongst the rest of the world for gun violence.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

"A 2016 survey of prison inmates by the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that 43% of guns used in crimes were obtained from the black market, 25% from an individual, 10% from a retail source (including 0.8% from a gun show), and 6% from theft.[222]"

You're in denial, is all.

So when are you going to get back on topic and help us get rid of these illegal purchases firearms that account for 49% of guns crimes, 74% if you count in illegal individual sales not associated with the black market.

I'm not in denial. You're living in a fiction.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is impossible.

A criminal cannot legally purchase a firearm in the U.S. It is against the law. End of story. You need to get that in your head and understand that.

Wait - you call me naive and then you say things like this? Do you really it as black-and-white, legal gun owners and criminals with no overlap?

Do you really think that it's impossible for a criminal to get a gun through legal channels?

Any criminal who hasn't been caught yet can buy a gun legally.

Any criminal who was caught but released or acquitted can buy a gun legally.

Any criminal who was caught and convicted, but only ever convicted of misdemeanors can buy a gun legally.

There's quite a bit of overlap between the "legal gun owners" you identify with and the "criminals" you're making preparations to kill, if need be.

A question for you: what percentage of the cases near you where a husband shot and killed his wife involved a legal gun that the husband kept for "self-defense?"

Heck... what proportion of these spouse killers do you think were members of their local gun club?

Just give a ballpark estimate.

 

[Enoch07]

Wait - you call me naive and then you say things like this? Do you really it as black-and-white, legal gun owners and criminals with no overlap?

A convicted criminal cannot purchase a firearm legally in the United States. Period end of story.

Can someone possess a gun after a criminal conviction?

"Federal law bans those who have been convicted of certain crimes from ever possessing firearms. Included in those crimes are all felonies and misdemeanor domestic violence offenses. (The law also prohibits those subject to domestic violence restraining orders from having a gun.) (18 U.S.C. § 922(g) (2013).)"

Here describes the misdemeanor that prevents a citizen from owning a forearm.
1117. Restrictions on the Possession of Firearms by Individuals Convicted of a Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence

Do you really think that it's impossible for a criminal to get a gun through legal channels?

Yes impossible according to federal law.

Any criminal who hasn't been caught yet can buy a gun legally.

They are not a criminal until they've been convicted.

Presumption of innocence - Wikipedia

Any criminal who was caught but released or acquitted can buy a gun legally.

If they were not convicted then they are not criminals. Again Presumption of Innocence above.

Any criminal who was caught and convicted, but only ever convicted of misdemeanors can buy a gun legally.

So long as it's not domestic violence as listed above yes. Typically people who commit misdemeanors are not considered criminals. Misdemeanor convictions rarely result in jail time and most often is just a monetary fine.

Misdemeanor - Wikipedia

A speeding ticket can be a misdemeanor. Doesn't mean we are all criminals.

There's quite a bit of overlap between the "legal gun owners" you identify with and the "criminals" you're making preparations to kill, if need be.

Nope that's a fabrication all in your head.

A question for you: what percentage of the cases near you where a husband shot and killed his wife involved a legal gun that the husband kept for "self-defense?"

Irrelevant, we are talking about criminals obtaining weapons illegally. No more goal post moving.

Heck... what proportion of these spouse killers do you think were members of their local gun club?

Irrelevant, we are talking about criminals obtaining firearms illegally.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Wait - you call me naive and then you say things like this? Do you really it as black-and-white, legal gun owners and criminals with no overlap?

Do you really think that it's impossible for a criminal to get a gun through legal channels?

Any criminal who hasn't been caught yet can buy a gun legally.

Considering up thread he literally just admitted to criminal assault, and is a gun owner, that's a big fat QED.

 

[oldbadger]

Goal post shift but whatevs. I'll prove ya wrong on that too.

Incorrect

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

In 2017 40,000 died by a gun shot.

60% of those 40,000 were suicides which is roughly 24,000.

37% were murders by gun which is roughly 15,000.

373 people died in 2018 due to mass shooters. This is not counting in for gang related murders by criminals who use illegally obtained weapons.

The U.S actually ranks 20th amongst amongst the rest of the world for gun violence.

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

"A 2016 survey of prison inmates by the Bureau of Justice Statistics found that 43% of guns used in crimes were obtained from the black market, 25% from an individual, 10% from a retail source (including 0.8% from a gun show), and 6% from theft.[222]"



So when are you going to get back on topic and help us get rid of these illegal purchases firearms that account for 49% of guns crimes, 74% if you count in illegal individual sales not associated with the black market.

I'm not in denial. You're living in a fiction.

You have just pushed up the average gun killings per day from 35 to 38. Keep going.

And about 40% of gun aquisition for crimes comes from private sales and retail. Better controls can make a big difference to all this, and if police can instantly seize any guns not on the data insurance base then they will make a good sum in scrap metal each week.

Now all you have to do is give us a list of mass killing incidents where the killer got guns from illegal sources. Good luck with that.

 

[Enoch07]

You have just pushed up the average gun killings per day from 35 to 38. Keep going.

that's impossible considering the stats I provided was from 2017/2018.............

And about 40% of gun aquisition for crimes comes from private sales and retail.

You are conflating 2 completely separate things.

Private sales is between 2 citizens. If a citizen sells a weapon to a convicted felon. That is an illegal sale per federal law. So you can't lump in private sales with as either legal or illegal without verifying each sale to see if a the purchaser was a criminal before buying the weapon.

Retail is only 10%. This is the amount of guns that would be reduced if a total gun ban was in effect. Because this is the number of firearms purchased legally by citizens who then commit crimes later with those guns and become criminals.

Now all you have to do is give us a list of mass killing incidents where the killer got guns from illegal sources. Good luck with that.

That's easy, all gang/drug related drivebys/murders. Which is the shooter in the OP is apart of. Most have previous criminal history, as per this particular shooter, which means they are not allowed to own guns, as per this particular shooter, and usually they shoot multiple people at a time, as per this particular shoter.

 

[oldbadger]

that's impossible considering the stats I provided was from 2017/2018.............

I was using your figures.
So the average is about 38 p[er day?

You are conflating 2 completely separate things.

You quoted crime shooting gun-acquisition figues, and about 40% of the acquisitions came from private and retail sales.
That needs fixing and would make a difference.

That's easy, all gang/drug related drivebys/murders. Which is the shooter in the OP is apart of. Most have previous criminal history, as per this particular shooter, which means they are not allowed to own guns, as per this particular shooter, and usually they shoot multiple people at a time, as per this particular shoter.

So nearly all the mass killings from way before columbine up until now have been committed with legally acquired guns?
Totally dreadful.

You can't hide the truth, much as you might like.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They are not a criminal until they've been convicted.

What a bizarre position. You count people who have committed crimes as law-abiding gun owners until they're actually convicted?

 

[Enoch07]

You quoted crime shooting gun-acquisition figues, and about 40% of the acquisitions came from private and retail sales.

Yes but you are conflating them, when we don't know exactly how many of those were legel/illegal. So you can't put the private sales into either category without separating the data.

So nearly all the mass killings from way before columbine up until now have been committed with legally acquired guns?

How you came to that conclusion is mind boggling.

You can't hide the truth, much as you might like.

I'm not hiding anything. I am providing real data to battle your false narrative of made up BS.