Hitchen's Challange

[Sheldon]

What I said was, churches are there to help bad people. Churches are like a gym for morality.

So Christians and theists can't be good unless they attend church then? This longstanding theistic canard that atheists are immoral, is opposed by plenty of research.

<LINK>


"A new study suggests that, while atheists and theists share moral values related to protecting vulnerable individuals, atheists are less likely to endorse values that promote group cohesion and more inclined to judge the morality of actions based on their consequences."

It goes on...

"The most general take-home message from these studies is that people who do not believe in God do have a moral compass. In fact, they share many of the same moral concerns that religious believers have, such as concerns about fairness, and about protecting vulnerable individuals from harm. However, disbelievers are less inclined than believers to endorse moral values that serve group cohesion, such as having respect for authorities, ingroup loyalty, and sanctity... It is possible that the negative stereotype of atheists as immoral may stem in part from the fact that they are less inclined than religious people to view respect for authority, ingroup loyalty, and sanctity as relevant for morality, and they are more likely to make moral judgments about harm on a consequentialist, case by case basis."

 

[Sheldon]

I don't care to hang around homosexuals. I don't approve of what they flaunt as natural, healthy and inconsequential. I try to avoid them as much as I can.

Oh I'd bet my house the feeling is mutual. That homosexuality is a perfectly matorral variant of adult sexual desire is supported by substantial objective scientific research, your denials are irrelevant to that fact, just as your denials of the age of the universe, and species evolution, are irrelevant to those scientific facts.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Are they? Are they, really?

I disagree.
Instead, I see churches as gyms for false hope and the pretense of being about morality, but really they are about dogma.

There's plenty of immoral nastyness embedded in christian churches - some more then others.

We can go to extreme examples like the Phelps.
We can go to more common examples like general homophobia.



Having said that.... no, that's not what you said.
What you said was "Sometimes christians are worse then atheists".

This implies that you think atheists are always bad and that some christians are even worse.
And I didn't see you post anything in which you retract that implication by for example saying that you expressed yourself poorly and that it's not what you actually meant.

Let me correct myself. Jesus said the whole are not in need of a physician. Some people may not need him.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So Christians and theists can't be good unless they attend church then? This longstanding theistic canard that atheists are immoral, is opposed by plenty of research.

<LINK>


"A new study suggests that, while atheists and theists share moral values related to protecting vulnerable individuals, atheists are less likely to endorse values that promote group cohesion and more inclined to judge the morality of actions based on their consequences."

It goes on...

"The most general take-home message from these studies is that people who do not believe in God do have a moral compass. In fact, they share many of the same moral concerns that religious believers have, such as concerns about fairness, and about protecting vulnerable individuals from harm. However, disbelievers are less inclined than believers to endorse moral values that serve group cohesion, such as having respect for authorities, ingroup loyalty, and sanctity... It is possible that the negative stereotype of atheists as immoral may stem in part from the fact that they are less inclined than religious people to view respect for authority, ingroup loyalty, and sanctity as relevant for morality, and they are more likely to make moral judgments about harm on a consequentialist, case by case basis."

Church is a commandment for those who accept that commandment.

Different people have different struggles.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I think you mean might, not can, and that's a claim that is rather undone by all the law abiding moral atheists out there. Why do people need divine diktat in order to see that violent crimes like rape and murder are deeply pernicious, and traumatise others in the worst possible way? Is it only atheists who are capable of empathetic reasoning then?

Einstein said if you need the afterlife to be good you are lacking moral fiber or something like that.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I would just remember, atheists are not off the hook when it comes to being good.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't care to hang around homosexuals. I don't approve of what they flaunt as natural, healthy and inconsequential. I try to avoid them as much as I can.

And therein lies the problem.
Perhaps if you interacted with some gay people, you'd realize they're just human beings, like anyone else.
Do you avoid interactions with divorced people as well?

The other problem is that you didn't answer my other question:
"What does homosexuality say about "one's character?" What part does gender play in a relationship that makes only opposite sex couples compatible with each other?"

 

[SkepticThinker]

What I said was, churches are there to help bad people. Churches are like a gym for morality.

The higher ups in the Catholic Church have certainly helped a lot of bad people carry on with their bad actions.

 

[robocop (actually)]

The higher ups in the Catholic Church have certainly helped a lot of bad people carry on with their bad actions.

The Catholic church does great charity, but I hear it's corrupt.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Catholic church does great charity, but I hear it's corrupt.

Anyone who helps pederasts continue to molest children instead of immediately turning them into the police, is grossly immoral, imo.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Anyone who helps pederasts continue to molest children instead of immediately turning them into the police, is grossly immoral, imo.

But they do a great deal of charity.

 

[DNB]

Jim Bakker says he’s a Christian. I take him at face value. And Jerry Falwell, Jr. and any other nasty person. It’s not my place to judge their relationship with Jesus. Do they love Jesus? I don’t know. Does Jesus love them? Absolutely. And that’s the basis for our spiritual condition. Perhaps you’re privy to some secret information that no other human being has?

Oh! Still waiting for your answers to those questions I posed. There. Must be some empirical data to inform your assertion. Unless, of course, its basis is opinion and not fact.

You just called them 'nasty'?! How in the world does that reconcile with your view of what defines a Christian? Have you ever heard of the terms 'charlatan', 'hypocrite', 'avaricious', 'exploitive', 'wolf in sheep's clothing', ....?

Even you, yourself, appear to have an entirely misinformed conception of Christianity, where you believe that you can syncretize one's Christology with that of Shamanism???
Are you unaware of the exclusivity of Christ, of how God ordained him from the beginning of time :

Ephesians 1:19–23
19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power for us who believe, according to the working of his great power. 20 Godf put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. 22 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Colossinas 1:17-20
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. 19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

Like I said, maybe you need to change your religion on your profile?

 

[DNB]

None of which are compatible with hate speech, and homophobic bigotry. Or with denying accepted scientific facts, like species evolution or the age of the earth. Or believing in global flood myths, even after they have been demonstrated as false.

Christian's are wholesome characters, we denounce illicit sexual behaviour and hope that the sinners, like homosexuals and atheists, will repent.

 

[DNB]

Homosexuality does need anyone's endorsement, as I stated, anymore than heterosexuality does, if you learned to read posts, instead of blindly repeating your mantra of homophobic hate speech, you might understand that.



Why don't you try explaining it, without resorting to sweeping unevidenced claims about archaic superstition.

One's gender defines many attributes about their character, their purpose, their behaviour, their attire. Biology is intrinsic, and thus, so is one's gender, we do not, therefore, attempt to either manipulate, distort, violate, deny or disregard, confuse or corrupt, one's anatomical constitution.

Respect what nature has produced, and firmly appreciate how environmental influences can cause confusion in one's perspective of who they are, or what they should be.

 

[DNB]

“But I’m not unkind or bigoted in any way. As a Christian, I always see the face of Christ in those around me.”

How so? Did Jesus see the face of holiness in Judas Iscariot ('..it would be better that he wasn't born...'), or the Pharisees ('..you hypocrites and white-washed tombs..'). Was Peter pleased with Ananias and Saphira, or Paul with Elymas the sorcerer, etc.....

Don't sound like a naive and flaky Christian by acting like a bleeding-heart. ...again, are you really a Christian, or a Shamanist, or a mutilation of both?

 

[DNB]

Oh I'd bet my house the feeling is mutual. That homosexuality is a perfectly matorral variant of adult sexual desire is supported by substantial objective scientific research, your denials are irrelevant to that fact, just as your denials of the age of the universe, and species evolution, are irrelevant to those scientific facts.

Will you quit appealing to flippin' scientific research, for crying out flippin' loud?!?!?!

Science cannot discern the heart, the spiritual, intent, emotions, desires, wickedness or morality. You're a secularist for, as I said, atheist lack depth of thought and perception.

 

[DNB]

And therein lies the problem.
Perhaps if you interacted with some gay people, you'd realize they're just human beings, like anyone else.
Do you avoid interactions with divorced people as well?

The other problem is that you didn't answer my other question:
"What does homosexuality say about "one's character?" What part does gender play in a relationship that makes only opposite sex couples compatible with each other?"

Depends on the reasons for the divorce, also on who initiated the divorce - the victim will not be perceived as the wrong-doer.
Homosexuality implies that one's character is either corrupt, confused, impressionable, or vulnerable.
Gender defines character, purpose, capabilities, and roles. Almost every single living entity on earth has a gender, and this intrinsic and immutable fact plays such an integral part in the symbiosis of the relationship (what one lacks, the other fulfills), and the proliferation and sustainment of one's species.

 

[sojourner]

You just called them 'nasty'?! How in the world does that reconcile with your view of what defines a Christian? Have you ever heard of the terms 'charlatan', 'hypocrite', 'avaricious', 'exploitive', 'wolf in sheep's clothing', ....?

It doesn’t. But it’s not up to me to stand in judgment of their professed faith. Although you don’t seem to have any trouble disrespecting appropriate boundaries with your posts.

Even you, yourself, appear to have an entirely misinformed conception of Christianity, where you believe that you can syncretize one's Christology with that of Shamanism???

See above. Since you don’t have the foggiest idea what you’re talking about, you’re only making yourself look silly when you blur appropriate boundaries of judging someone’s faith-stance.

Are you unaware of the exclusivity of Christ,

Are you unaware of the inclusivity of Christ? (See the pericope of the Good Samaritan for starters).

Like I said, maybe you need to change your religion on your profile

Like I said, maybe you need to stop being the religion police.

 

[sojourner]

How so? Did Jesus see the face of holiness in Judas Iscariot ('..it would be better that he wasn't born...'), or the Pharisees ('..you hypocrites and white-washed tombs..'). Was Peter pleased with Ananias and Saphira, or Paul with Elymas the sorcerer, etc.....

Don't sound like a naive and flaky Christian by acting like a bleeding-heart. ...again, are you really a Christian, or a Shamanist, or a mutilation of both?

Your provocative posturing and incessant gaslighting won’t work.

 

[sojourner]

Will you quit appealing to flippin' scientific research, for crying out flippin' loud?!?!?!

Science cannot discern the heart, the spiritual, intent, emotions, desires, wickedness or morality. You're a secularist for, as I said, atheist lack depth of thought and perception.

“Stop appealing to science.” Science can discern what’s normal and healthful in human preferences and behavior.

I’ve read the posts, and you appear to be projecting where depth of thought and perception are concerned.