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His Holiness, the XIV Dalai Lama of Tibet, visits Argentina promoting World Peace

Johnathan

Member
Source: His Holiness in Argentina to Promote Human Values & world Peace : Indybay originally from His Holiness in Argentina to Promote Human Values & world Peace

The spiritual leader of Tibet, His Holiness the Dalai Lama arrived yesterday evening in Buenos Aires[...]He was received at the airport by the protocol officers of the Ministry of External Affairs of Argentina as well as by Prof. Horacio E. Araujo (Lama Sangye Dorye), Lama Rinchen, and other members of the Kagyu Thekchen Choeling, one of the two hosts of the visit in Argentina.

Later, His Holiness was greeted by the members of the Dongyuling (Drukpa Kagyu) Buddhist Center, second host of the visit, and many well-wishers.
This morning (14 September), His Holiness had an hour long meeting with the Argentinean media. More than 25 media people, representing various media agencies attended the press meet. His Holiness told the media that he has come to Argentina at the invitation of many of his friends and his main purpose of the visit was to share his two commitments in life - to promote basic human values as a fellow human being and to promote harmony among various religious traditions, as a spiritual person and Buddhist.

I am an admirer of the His Holiness. I love his warm personality and his message of tolerance to the world. We need more people like him!

May Tibet be free one day.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Darned idealistic trouble makers!
"Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?"
:sarcastic
 
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Johnathan

Member
I never get why the Buddhists get such an easy ride compared to other religious.

Buddhists are usually open-minded and tolerant. I remember hearing the Dalai Lama saying once, that if science proves something true, then no further debate is needed.

For one the Buddhists aren't obsessing over who I sleep with, what I put into my body, whether or not I'm listening to music, and aren't going to tell me I'm going to hell because I dance or play cards, and they aren't going to blow me up if I refuse to convert.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Buddhists are usually open-minded and tolerant. I remember hearing the Dalai Lama saying once, that if science proves something true, then no further debate is needed.

For one the Buddhists aren't obsessing over who I sleep with, what I put into my body, whether or not I'm listening to music, and aren't going to tell me I'm going to hell because I dance or play cards, and they aren't going to blow me up if I refuse to convert.


I watched a program on BBC one night about Tibet, can't remember the name of it, but there was an old woman on it and she hated the Dali Lama with a passion. Said the Communists coming was the best thing that ever happened because it freed her from serfdom. It seems to me that Tibet under the Lama's was a brutal backward feudal state - but that is seldom mentioned. Instead we get a rose tinted buddhism lite - I don't understand the free pass.

Here's some criticism a quick google got me from Canterbury Atheist: 10 Facts About Tibet The Dalai Lama Doesn't Want You To Know
FACT ONE: Tibetans practiced a spiritual form of medicine. One of the more bizarre beliefs, were the mystical healing http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uuEaCUoip...AAyQ/Z1Bq6SobagU/s1600-h/Dalai+Lama+Book1.jpgpowers lamas possessed. Just being able to touch a holy person was enough to cure a raft of diseases. And for those unable to get close to a deity like the Dalai Lam, the god-man came to them, in the form of urine and excrement (the later was dried & made into a pill, for swallowing)Spittle from a lama was similarly treasured for its healing powers.

FACT TWO: Without basic sanitary conditions, hygiene, rubbish-collection, running water, modern medical care like hospitals & preventive medicines, pre-Chinese Tibet was beset with chronic health problems. Small pox was rife enough for the 13th Dalai Lama to suffer its rages. Cataracts, leprosy, tuberculosis were also prevalent. But, the most widespread affliction suffered by the general population was venereal disease.

FACT THREE: Infant mortality was around 1 in 2 (one set of figures put it as high as 3 in 4)The current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso (born 1935) tells of his mother giving birth to 14 children, 6 of which died as babies.

FACT FOUR: The old Tibetan word for woman is Kiemen (or kye-mi) The literal translation of this is ‘inferior birth’ of ‘lower birth’. Tibetan Buddhists believed only males could achieve ‘nirvana’. A Buddhist prayer commonly recited went along the lines “may I reject a feminine body and be reborn a male one”.

FACT FIVE: Prior to the Chinese invasion there were only two small schools operating in the whole of Tibet (using the term school in the modern secular interpretation of the word) These schools educated teenage boys starting at age 14. Eligibility was confined to nobility, families of high ranking monks and government officials.

FACT SIX: At any one time 15 to 20 per cent of the male population were monks. Rendering a large percentage of the work-force effectively ‘redundant’ was a large economic burden on an already fragile economy. Feeding and clothing this vast monastic empire fell to the serfs & peasants who were not only subservient & bound to the local monastery, the state, but also the aristocratic lord, whose lands it was, they were tenant-farming.

FACT SEVEN: Serfs, who made-up around 80% of the population (again figures vary) were ‘tied to their master’s’. Under the Tibetan feudal system, peasants were rendered virtually powerless. They couldn’t travel, marry, trade etc, without permission or consent of their masters. About 500 families controlled 80% of the countries wealth.

FACT EIGHT: With so few jails operating, a more summary form of justices was employed, which may have been a blessing considering the Government Jail operating in Lhasa was part cesspit, part prison, from which inmates were released from their squalor for just two days a year. At the disposal of the law administrators (read; rich lords, religious fraternities and government officials) were a whole range of crude medieval type torture devices: manacles, red hot irons, implements to gouge eyes out, hanging by thumbs, crippling, sewing the guilty party into a sack and throwing them into a river, spikes under finger-nails, forcing pepper into the eyes – were all a realities of the pre-invasion justice system for the ‘docile’ Buddhist peoples of Tibet.

FACT NINE: An indication of how backward & uneducated Tibetans were in 1950 – most people thought the world was flat.

FACT TEN: Travellers & adventurers to Lhasa (translated as ‘Place of the Gods) were not only overawed by the sight of the city and the magnificent Potala Palace, they were also overcome by its stench. In his time there, the current Dalai Lama made constant mention to his entourage about the ever-present smell & dirt caused by lack of proper sanitation, rubbish collection & absence of a sewage system. The National Geographic expedition of 1904 described the streets of Lhasa as ‘narrow andhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uuEaCUoip...yY/4JTMc0mtuqg/s1600-h/Tibet+Seven+Years1.jpg filthy’. A year earlier a Swedish explorers said of Lhasa “everything from top to toe is filthy”. Popular British Journalist, Edmond Candler, renowned for his literary depictions of his travels in the region, gave his readers this mental image of Lhasa in 1905 “We found the city squalid and filthy beyond description, undrained and unpaved”. Indeed descriptions of Tibet as a whole also mirrored these views. German traveller Theodore Illion going as far as telling his readers “Tibet ranks amongst the most filthy countries in the world”. We see similar depictions of pre-1950 Tibet amongst virtually all the writers. “On the sides of the roads were heaps of rubbish”. “Revoltingly filthy”. “Dark and Ill-Smelling" etc etc.
 

Johnathan

Member
Your post is a bit too judgemental. I do not we have the right to judge other cultures. It is true that Tibet might not have been modern, but neither was their neighbor China - which would later invade Tibet and kill over 1.2 million people, which still practiced concubinage, feudalism or foot-binding, and regarded exotic animals and even human flesh as a rare delicacy (a practice which has continued well into the 21st century). Europe was not better off where in many countries not being a catholic or criticizing the King could get you beheaded, and neither was the Muslim world where barbaric Shariah ruled, allowing gender apartheid, child marriage, beheadings and holy wars.

The claims that you, or rather, the blogger is making don't do anything but to confirm the cruel and racist stereotypes that are perpetrated by the Chinese government, which they used to colonize Tibet. And belies a lack of understanding about the Tibetan culture. If the blogger does pretend to understand Tibetan culture, his information is quite euro-centric. People in the independent Tibet had a rather good life, in-spite of "poverty" as defined by whites. China might have "modernized" but they also implemented labor camps, rigged trials, torture, banned the Tibetan language, and created an apartheid system like South Africa, where certain areas of Lhasa are for Chinese only. They have robbed the Tibetans of the means of production to control their economy and the largest gold-mine in Tibet has been subcontracted out to a German company once owned by the Nazis.

I think the blogger whoever he is is being nothing but an apologist for the Chinese government. He needs to do better research and read, re-read, and re-read until he understands a fair and balanced view of history.

FACT ONE: Tibetans practiced a spiritual form of medicine. One of the more bizarre beliefs, were the mystical healing powers lamas possessed. Just being able to touch a holy person was enough to cure a raft of diseases. And for those unable to get close to a deity like the Dalai Lam, the god-man came to them, in the form of urine and excrement (the later was dried & made into a pill, for swallowing)Spittle from a lama was similarly treasured for its healing powers.
And in the past, whites believed that arsenic was medicine. People in the 18th century believed that leeches would cure you, and that the air during the night was poisonous. Arabs believed camel urine was medicine. And whites also venerated the relics of a bunch of dead catholic guys.

FACT TWO: Without basic sanitary conditions, hygiene, rubbish-collection, running water, modern medical care like hospitals & preventive medicines, pre-Chinese Tibet was beset with chronic health problems. Small pox was rife enough for the 13th Dalai Lama to suffer its rages. Cataracts, leprosy, tuberculosis were also prevalent. But, the most widespread affliction suffered by the general population was venereal disease.
This is not true, actually early explorers to Tibet remarked that it was clean and its people were healthy. While there were health problems as in any city, early industrial cities had the same problems with no plumbing and rampant cholera.

FACT THREE: Infant mortality was around 1 in 2 (one set of figures put it as high as 3 in 4)The current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso (born 1935) tells of his mother giving birth to 14 children, 6 of which died as babies.

FACT FOUR: The old Tibetan word for woman is Kiemen (or kye-mi) The literal translation of this is ‘inferior birth’ of ‘lower birth’. Tibetan Buddhists believed only males could achieve ‘nirvana’. A Buddhist prayer commonly recited went along the lines “may I reject a feminine body and be reborn a male one”.
But actually there are many words in Tibetan for a woman and the Tibetans worshipped and respected the feminine. In contrast, up until the 1960's in the West, a woman was considered the property of her husband. Let's not even go to what other countries still do to women.

FACT FIVE: Prior to the Chinese invasion there were only two small schools operating in the whole of Tibet (using the term school in the modern secular interpretation of the word) These schools educated teenage boys starting at age 14. Eligibility was confined to nobility, families of high ranking monks and government officials.
And up until the American invasion of Afghanistan there were only madrassahs which taught you the Quran and taught you how to be a terrorist. In Old Europe, most of the education was biblical.

FACT SIX: At any one time 15 to 20 per cent of the male population were monks. Rendering a large percentage of the work-force effectively ‘redundant’ was a large economic burden on an already fragile economy. Feeding and clothing this vast monastic empire fell to the serfs & peasants who were not only subservient & bound to the local monastery, the state, but also the aristocratic lord, whose lands it was, they were tenant-farming.
They had a spiritual society and there was nothing wrong with this.

FACT SEVEN: Serfs, who made-up around 80% of the population (again figures vary) were ‘tied to their master’s’. Under the Tibetan feudal system, peasants were rendered virtually powerless. They couldn’t travel, marry, trade etc, without permission or consent of their masters. About 500 families controlled 80% of the countries wealth.
Again, playing fast and loose with the numbers. Tibet's society was agricultural but they were not serfs. They were farmers who rented land from landowners and paid them rents, no different than how you or I might rent a storefront from a landlord and pay them a rent every month. But in addition to farmers, there were also scholars, artisans, professionals, tradesmen, and every imaginable profession.

FACT EIGHT: With so few jails operating, a more summary form of justices was employed, which may have been a blessing considering the Government Jail operating in Lhasa was part cesspit, part prison, from which inmates were released from their squalor for just two days a year. At the disposal of the law administrators (read; rich lords, religious fraternities and government officials) were a whole range of crude medieval type torture devices: manacles, red hot irons, implements to gouge eyes out, hanging by thumbs, crippling, sewing the guilty party into a sack and throwing them into a river, spikes under finger-nails, forcing pepper into the eyes – were all a realities of the pre-invasion justice system for the ‘docile’ Buddhist peoples of Tibet.
Above you claimed that Tibet was not modern, so how could they be expected to build a modern, comfortable jail? And while theoretically the death penalty existed, they were never used. Most of the stories of torture come from Chinese sources and may have been implemented by the Chinese themselves and can't be trusted as a result.

FACT NINE: An indication of how backward & uneducated Tibetans were in 1950 – most people thought the world was flat.
And your point is? And apparently 20% of xtians think the sun revolves around the earth in the 21st century: 1 in 5 US citizens think the Sun revolves around the Earth - Rusty Lime

FACT TEN: Travellers & adventurers to Lhasa (translated as ‘Place of the Gods) were not only overawed by the sight of the city and the magnificent Potala Palace, they were also overcome by its stench. In his time there, the current Dalai Lama made constant mention to his entourage about the ever-present smell & dirt caused by lack of proper sanitation, rubbish collection & absence of a sewage system. The National Geographic expedition of 1904 described the streets of Lhasa as ‘narrow and filthy’. A year earlier a Swedish explorers said of Lhasa “everything from top to toe is filthy”. Popular British Journalist, Edmond Candler, renowned for his literary depictions of his travels in the region, gave his readers this mental image of Lhasa in 1905 “We found the city squalid and filthy beyond description, undrained and unpaved”. Indeed descriptions of Tibet as a whole also mirrored these views. German traveller Theodore Illion going as far as telling his readers “Tibet ranks amongst the most filthy countries in the world”. We see similar depictions of pre-1950 Tibet amongst virtually all the writers. “On the sides of the roads were heaps of rubbish”. “Revoltingly filthy”. “Dark and Ill-Smelling" etc etc.
Such a euro-centric account hardly makes sense in the context we are talking about and doesn't do anything to help your case.
 
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Faxecura

Member
You seem to be a bit hypocritical when you say that we shouldn't judge other cultures, then jump into judging White, Chinese, and Arab cultures as being "barbaric". You've also been judgemental towards the Pope, calling him a "spiritual dictator"

I never get why the Buddhists get such an easy ride compared to other religious.
My own opinion is that (1) there is no political reason to go after Buddhism, and (2) partly due to (1), it would be impolitically correct to criticize Buddhists because they're not White.
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
I never get why the Buddhists get such an easy ride compared to other religious.

Buddhists are usually open-minded and tolerant. I remember hearing the Dalai Lama saying once, that if science proves something true, then no further debate is needed.

For one the Buddhists aren't obsessing over who I sleep with, what I put into my body, whether or not I'm listening to music, and aren't going to tell me I'm going to hell because I dance or play cards, and they aren't going to blow me up if I refuse to convert.
This.
And the fact that the Chinese government thries to destroy the Tibetan culture.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I am an admirer of the His Holiness. I love his warm personality and his message of tolerance to the world. We need more people like him!
I used to be a great admirer, but now find his message simplistic and unrealistic. I do not consider him to be "holy", in any sense of the word and find usage of the term to be the height of arrogance. Personally, I think, as a race, we have to get over such delusional thinking, that some are holier than others.

May Tibet be free one day.
I rather doubt the Communists are going to be talked into that any time soon. Certainly not in my lifetime, that much is sure.
 

Johnathan

Member
I used to be a great admirer, but now find his message simplistic and unrealistic. I do not consider him to be "holy", in any sense of the word and find usage of the term to be the height of arrogance. Personally, I think, as a race, we have to get over such delusional thinking, that some are holier than others.

The face His Holiness (I will personally use the term here as it is his proper title) presents to a Western audience is somewhat different than what is resented to his the Tibetan monastic audience. This is not to say that His Holiness has been two faced. Rather, just as a famous scientist like Michio Kaku is known as a "popularizer" of science because he makes it accessible to everyday humans, also His Holiness makes general ideas of Buddhism accessible to most people who have not spent the year and years studying Buddhism.

I rather doubt the Communists are going to be talked into that any time soon. Certainly not in my lifetime, that much is sure.
Tibet is suffering for all the wrong reasons. Unfortunately this is something we have to face. If Tibet were a xtian nation, the US would have sent troops in to fight the Chinese. Or If Tibet had oil, or if it was somehow linked to oil like an imaginary territory called "Palestine", then people would be shouting there heads off to Free Tibet. :(
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The face His Holiness (I will personally use the term here as it is his proper title) presents to a Western audience is somewhat different than what is resented to his the Tibetan monastic audience. This is not to say that His Holiness has been two faced. Rather, just as a famous scientist like Michio Kaku is known as a "popularizer" of science because he makes it accessible to everyday humans, also His Holiness makes general ideas of Buddhism accessible to most people who have not spent the year and years studying Buddhism.
Having been a former supporter of the Dalai Lama for decades, you need not lecture me. Thanks.

Tibet is suffering for all the wrong reasons. Unfortunately this is something we have to face. If Tibet were a xtian nation, the US would have sent troops in to fight the Chinese. Or If Tibet had oil, or if it was somehow linked to oil like an imaginary territory called "Palestine", then people would be shouting there heads off to Free Tibet. :(
A bit too many "if's" for my comfort. I do find the comment about sending troops into a hypothetical Christian nation particularly laughable though. Um, yeah, sort of like they did in Viet Nam, Korea and Afghanistan... right.

In regards to the OP, I do find it amusing that his latest dog and pony show in Argentina is even seen as being newsworthy. C'mon... Argen-fricken-tina? What's next? Hugs with Chavez?
 
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