Heterosexual Adultery and Politics

[PureX]

Well, the republicans at that time really loathed Bill Clinton because he was so popular, and therefor "untouchable". And they really, REALLY wanted to knock that popularity quotient down to size. And they saw his history of philandering as an excellent way of doing that, because it would also incite their own Christian moral majority base supporters. So they figured it'd be a win/win to drag him through a big fat sex scandal.

The problem was that as usual, they were 15 years behind the times (as conservatives usually are), and the general public was more concerned about politicians watching out for the state of the economy, and the nation's security, and so on, than they were concerned about who was diddling whom under the desks in the White House. So the whole thing ended up looking exactly like what it was ... a politically motivated and orchestrated vendetta. And it made the republicans look like petty, vindictive inquisitioners. So it all backfired on them.

The thing is, though, that Bill Clinton's philandering was a real issue in that it did showcase his chronic selfishness and the ease with which he could lie to the news cameras and to the American people (and presumably to his wife). Unfortunately for the republicans, the economy was finally doing well after years of Reagan/Bush "trickle down" bull***, and the people were not in the mood for their phony witch-hunt.

Character matters. And standards need to be upheld. But at the same time, we need to understand that no one is perfect, and even the greatest leaders in history were less than stellar in their private lives. So we need to view all this with a healthy dose of realism.

 

[Estro Felino]

It wasn't just his private life. Sex with a
young intern in their workplace is more
than just inappropriate.

Consensual sex.
It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt.
I am not understanding this: nobody is allowed to have sex within the White House, right?

 

[Estro Felino]

Character matters. And standards need to be upheld. But at the same time, we need to understand that no one is perfect, and even the greatest leaders in history were less than stellar in their private lives. So we need to view all this with a healthy dose of realism.

It's a totally cultural thing. It belongs to the cultural heritage of the United States, based upon tradition: since the 18th century, the president is the guarantee of family values, that's why the FLOTUS is an institution. The FL campaigns with the husband, everywhere.
For example...there is not such a thing as the FL in my country. There has never been.

 

[HonestJoe]

There is an Americans' obsession with heterosexual adultery...even as for Hunter Biden...lately.
On the contrary I am realizing that Americans couldn't care less if some politician cheats on their wife with a man.
As if homosexual adultery was not real adultery.
Is that true?

I don't think so. I think you're misrepresenting the general public attitudes entirely.

I don't think there is any obsession with politicians adultery specifically, just the standard gossip trend that applies to anyone people are aware of (be people in the public eye or in their own lives). I also think same-sex adultery gets a similar level of attention, though typically with different focuses due to the general differences to how same-sex relationships are viewed.

The issues with adultery with politicians specifically is about the implicit wilful dishonesty and also the risk of such relationships being a tool for leaking secrets, undue influence or corruption. With Clinton specifically, there was also the aspect that his relationship was essentially with a subordinate employee, which is generally frowned upon in any work environment.

 

[Revoltingest]

Consensual sex.

Consensual sex isn't always without legal & moral problems....
- Power differential between the parties, eg, CEO & intern.
- One being much younger.
- In the workplace, especially during working hours.
- Intoxication.

 

[Estro Felino]

. I also think same-sex adultery gets a similar level of attention, though typically with different focuses due to the general differences to how same-sex relationships are viewed.
.

Could you please deepen this sentence? It's very interesting.
I need more information to get this.

 

[Estro Felino]

Consensual sex isn't always without legal & moral problems....
- Power differential between the parties, eg, CEO & intern.
- One being much younger.
- In the workplace, especially during working hours.
- Intoxication.

Could you answer my question?
Is having sex inside the White House forbidden?

 

[Revoltingest]

Could you answer my question?
Is having sex inside the White House forbidden?

Your question isn't the issue.
But legal sex does happen in the White House.
Rumor has it that even Hillary engaged in it with Bill.
Your question craftily ignores the issues I raised.

 

[Estro Felino]

Your question isn't the issue.
But legal sex does happen in the White House.
Rumor has it that even Hillary engaged in it with Bill.
Your question craftily ignores the issues I raised.

Juridically...if there is consent and age, all the rest is irrelevant. Juridically irrelevant: when, where and how.

On the contrary...even if you are an atheist, you own a very deep sense of Christian morality...
that few Catholics have, here in Italy.

That is...you do believe in certain values that come from Christianity.


With all due respect, I had to point that out.

 

[Revoltingest]

Juridically...if there is consent and age, all the rest is irrelevant. Juridically irrelevant: when, where and how.

You're just re-stating your view.
Not addressing the issues I raised.

 

[Estro Felino]

You're just re-stating your view.
Not addressing the issues I raised.

1) Power differential between the parties, eg, CEO & intern. = Juridically irrelevant if there is consent.

2) One being much younger. = Juridically irrelevant if they are both 18 years old, legal age.

3) In the workplace, especially during working hours= Juridically irrelevant because of consent, and because the context was kept private. Even if it is avoidable and not praisable, it doesn't configure a penally relevant situation.

4) Intoxication= I am not getting what you mean by this

 

[Stevicus]

Bravo, bravo, bravo.
That was the point of the thread. That's where I was getting at.

I meant that the heterosexual male is more and more discriminated against.
Because if a US politician (who is supposedly heterosexual because he is married and with children) is caught cheating on his wife with a man...no tabloid will care because homosexuality is more and more praised and protected even if it's practiced by a married person.

I can't recall any actual examples of a US politician who is married to a woman being caught in an extramarital affair with a man.

Senator Sinema of Arizona is openly bisexual, though I believe she is currently unmarried. But if she was married to a man and caught cheating with a woman, would the reaction be different if she was married to a woman and cheated with a man? Or if she was married to a man and cheated with another man, or married to a woman and cheated with another woman, I wonder what the press reaction would be.

 

[Revoltingest]

1) Power differential between the parties, eg, CEO & intern. = Juridically irrelevant if there is consent.

2) One being much younger. = Juridically irrelevant if they are both older than 18.

3) In the workplace, especially during working hours= Juridically irrelevant because of consent, and because the context was kept private. Even if it is avoidable and not praisable, it doesn't configure a penally relevant situation.

4) Intoxication= I am not getting what you mean by this

It seems that much is irrelevant in Italian law.
Regarding Bill, Monica, & his other paramours,
we observe that there are good reasons to limit
sexual activity in some workplaces. As taxpayers
(ie, Bill's employer) we're not getting our money's
worth from employees who create legal strife that
distracts them from work.

Perhaps in Italy, it doesn't interfere with their job
performance if leaders are busy defending themselves
from rape accusations, or boinking interns on the
desk while crafting public policy with other officials.
But here, they obviously muck up governance.


BTW, did you like my double entendre about
"job performance".

 

[Stevicus]

Could you answer my question?
Is having sex inside the White House forbidden?

I've heard rumors about a secret tunnel leading in to the White House so that Secret Service agents could smuggle in women during the JFK years. I don't know that there's any hard evidence of this, but it's just rumor.

But I don't think there's any actual law against having sex in the White House. It's really only a "house" for the First Family, while for everyone else working there, it's their office and place of business. Although that doesn't necessarily stop employees from getting it on at the workplace.

 

[Estro Felino]

It seems that much is irrelevant in Italian law.
Regarding Bill, Monica, & his other paramours,
we observe that there are good reasons to limit
sexual activity in some workplaces. As taxpayers
(ie, Bill's employer) we're not getting our money's
worth from employees who create legal strife that
distracts them from work.

Perhaps in Italy, it doesn't interfere with their job
performance if leaders are busy defending themselves
from rape accusations, or boinking interns on the
desk while crafting public policy with other officials.
But here, they obviously muck up governance.


BTW, did you like my double entendre about
"job performance".

It's an exclusively cultural matter. Law has little to do with that.
Because here culture is extremely chauvinistic and homophobic...so, if a President is rumored to have an affair with a beautiful, young woman (an intern), that means scores for him, as for popularity. Because it means he's masculo.

If the same President were caught having an affair with some muscular super-stud...who literally possesses him...
well..I guess that President would be shamed.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've heard rumors about a secret tunnel leading in to the White House so that Secret Service agents could smuggle in women during the JFK years. I don't know that there's any hard evidence of this, but it's just rumor.

But I don't think there's any actual law against having sex in the White House. It's really only a "house" for the First Family, while for everyone else working there, it's their office and place of business. Although that doesn't necessarily stop employees from getting it on at the workplace.

Since it's the place where the POTUS and the FLOTUS live, I think sexual morality implies that they are the only two people who are allowed to have sex in their bedroom...inside of that house.


As for JFK:
We all know about the rumors about Marilyn Monroe having an affair with both JFK and RFK.
The rumors say that John wanted to dump her, so he "entrusted" her to his brother...

 

[Stevicus]

Since it's the place where the POTUS and the FLOTUS live, I think sexual morality implies that they are the only two people who are allowed to have sex in their bedroom...inside of that house.

Yes, or perhaps people who are guests at the White House. I believe the King and Queen of England were once overnight guests at the White House, so if they wanted to have sex, that probably would have been okay, too.

Significant Foreign Visitors - White House Historical Association (whitehousehistory.org)

• 1939: The king and queen of England came to Washington, D.C., and stayed one night at the White House. It was the first trip to the United States by a British monarch.
• 1941: Prime Minister Winston Churchill arrived secretly at the White House just before Christmas. During his 24-day stay the staff had to adjust to his eccentricities. Chief Usher J.B. West recalled, "We got used to his 'jumpsuit,' the extraordinary one-piece uniform he wore every day, but the servants never quite got over seeing him naked in his room when they'd go up to serve brandy. It was the jumpsuit or nothing. In his room, Mr. Churchill wore no clothes at all most of the time during the day."

As for JFK:
We all know about the rumors about Marilyn Monroe having an affair with both JFK and RFK.
The rumors say that John wanted to dump her, so he "entrusted" her to his brother...

I wonder what would have happened if she stayed married to Mr. Coffee (Joe Dimaggio). They could have been Mr. and Mrs. Coffee together, as wholesome and pure as the Brady Bunch - symbols of the moral backbone of a powerful, God-fearing country.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It wasn't just his private life. Sex with a
young intern in their workplace is more
than just inappropriate.
Then he compounded the matter by
committing & suborning perjury.

It is true that the power differential made consenting...problematic. I think the sad irony is how much worse it was for Monica Lewinsky by making it a political issue rather than dealing with it privately. Like, yeah, Clinton shouldn't have used his power and influence to dally with a young intern, but she likely suffered more from it becoming a public scandal. Any sense of moral justice Republicans had from holding Clinton accountable was gone by making it a public spectacle. They should have at least not named names.

 

[Estro Felino]

It is true that the power differential made consenting...problematic. I think the sad irony is how much worse it was for Monica Lewinsky by making it a political issue rather than dealing with it privately. Like, yeah, Clinton shouldn't have used his power and influence to dally with a young intern, but she likely suffered more from it becoming a public scandal. Any sense of moral justice Republicans had from holding Clinton accountable was gone by making it a public spectacle. They should have at least not named names.

Or in other words: if it was all set up, Clinton will be considered the victimized person here.
So I don't see how he can be considered accountable for anything.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Or in other words: if it was all set up, Clinton will be considered the victimized person here.
So I don't see how he can be considered accountable for anything.

Well, I don't think he was necessarily set up. His relationship with Lewinsky could have been perfectly consensual, though I don't remember what Lewinsky has said about it. I will concede to actual quotations from her. (I am unable to look it up at the moment).

But I do think it is problematic for a politician to dally with an intern, especially younger. If they are of age to consent, the power dynamic still makes both parties vulnerable: one to nonconsent and the other to legal and moral issues related to it. Bill made a mistake there.

But arguably, the impeachment was far worse for Lewinsky. I was young, but I remember how she became the butt of Leno's jokes and an essential feature in tabloids. Her sexuality--whether consensual or not, assaulted or not--became a joke and political tool.