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"hell"

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Benoni, Aug 7, 2010.

  1. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    This thread is on the hell.

    I do not believe in eternal hell and can prove this using scripture as well as pointing out the multiple of mistranslated bias religious malicious lies.

    Here are some examples of what I mean.

    The Lake of Fire is spiritual.
    God caused the fall.
    Man does not have a freewill or choice towards salvation.
    Satan is not Lucifer.
    Man is not punished forever and ever, eternally or forever

    It would be simpler if we attacked each one of these subjects one at a time; but I am sure they will overlap.
     
  2. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    I choose "Man does not have freewill or choice towards salvation". What are the scriptural backings of this claim?
     
  3. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    Let me start with Eph. 1-8 and the only place in scripture I know where context is used in the the plan of how man is saved; here by using God’s Word not my opinion is a step by step diagram of how a person comes to a place where he can have faith to believe. . Nowhere is the word freewill or choice mentioned when it comes to salvation.

    How many times do I see believers quote “ For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God” and not use the context of this chapter where obviously this is a contextual chapter.

    Notice the person being quickened is dead in trespasses and sin. What does this mean? Does this mean the person is dead? No what it means is he is dead spiritual and a dead man cannot see, hear, touch anything spiritual so he must be quickened. Cannot not choose to do this on his own; not free to call upon God because he is dead spiritually.

    Eph 2: 1(1) And you hath he quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;


    (Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).


    2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
    6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9Not of works, lest any man should boast

    I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.



     
  4. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    I don't understand what you're saying at all.
     
  5. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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    I agree and I am pretty sure that he does not understand what he is saying.
     
  6. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    I quoted eight verses and you are telling me you do not understand that these eight verses show us how God saves us who are dead in trustpasses and sin. There is no freewill; or choice. God must quicken us from our spiritual dead state. We are saved not by freewill or choice but by the power of God's quicking spirit.
     
  7. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Well, I wouldn't go that far. he has probably just never had to explain it to anybody else. It makes sense in his mind, but he never been challenged to present it in a way that it will make sense to somebody that has a different mind, different past experiences, different perceptions, different schema for organizing knowledge.

    Correct.

    Oh, ok, I agree with that. We don't save ourselves; God saves us. But how does that prove that our choices have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not God saves us?

    And furthermore, even if our salvation itself is not related to any choices we make, this does not mean that there is no freewill or choice at all. How do you get to that conclusion?
     
    #7 Aqualung, Aug 7, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2010
  8. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Are these the examples of religious falsehoods? I agree.
     
  9. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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    He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day. -John 12:48



    The verse above says clearly that you can reject Jesus.




    But he said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God,


    and keep it."– Luke 11:28



    Some will hear and not keep it.



    Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
    We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.Romans 6:3-5

    Because they were Baptized into Christ they will be resurrected like Christ.

    This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, it saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    1 Peter 3:21

    You are not saved by Baptism but it is a sign of those who are saved.

    John 3:1-5
    Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    Jesus is saying that there is a reqiurment to be saved not just sitting around doing nothing.

    And the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, Get up, and go toward the south unto the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, which is desert. And he got up and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go near, and stay close to this chariot. And Philip ran up to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, How can I, except someone should guide me? And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.” And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I ask you, of whom is the prophet speaking? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached to him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came to some water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what keeps me from being baptized? And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stop: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and Philip baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more: but he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8:26-40

    Now God went way out of His way to tell this man about Jesus but yet you say God was waisting His time?

    Galatians 3:26-27
    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    Clothed yourselves with Christ

    Mark 16:15-16
    And he said unto them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.

    He that believes will be saved and he that disbelieves will be what?

    Acts 2:38-41
    And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls

    Repent and be baptized

    And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
    New Living Translation (©2007) Acts 2:21

    Everyone who calls

    that if with your mouth you confess Jesus as Lord and in your heart believe that God brought Him back to life, you shall be saved.Romans 10:9

    IF

    Now there are many many more your ideas about the scripture are wrong and that is all there is to it.
     
  10. Rakhel

    Rakhel Well-Known Member

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    I dare you to try that with "OT" books. (I am honestly curious if you can)
     
  11. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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    Sorry me or him?
     
  12. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    The Bible makes it clear that God wills all men to be saved(1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9). Were it not in our capacity to freely reject, and conversely freely accept, God's grace all men would be saved. Alas, we are not all saved because we are given the ability to freely accept or reject God, and many unfortunately reject Him and His love.
     
  13. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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    I agree.
     
  14. Rakhel

    Rakhel Well-Known Member

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    UMMM lol not sure. I accuse myself of my inability to read before I types sometimes.
    But I am curious if one can prove "hell" by using "OT" books.
     
  15. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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    The New Testament also refers to Hades as a temporary destination of the dead. Hades is portrayed as a different place from the final judgement of the damned in Gehenna. The Book of Revelation describes Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) (Revelation 20:14). Hades the temporary place of the dead is said to be removed for ever and cast into the Lake of Fire commonly understood to be synonymous with Gehenna or the final Hell of the unsaved. This indicating that any who die after this would never go to a temporary place, Hades, just instead a final judgement of saved or condemned.

    Just because hell is not mentioned in the OT does not mean that there is no hell. In the New Testament God reveals is plan for both salvation of those who accept Christ and the destruction of those who do not.
     
  16. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    Aqualung;

    Two points. First of all Carnal man is “dead” in trespasses and sin. This seems very foreign to many believer because I do not think they see this point in scripture.

    How can a dead man choose? Notice what God’s Word says about the non spiritual man; this I believe fits most Christians who are soulish in their belif not spiritual.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)

    14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)

    14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)


    14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.




    No one is against freewill; I am against freewill towards salvation. Did you choose, your parents, your color of skin, where and when you were born. Well carnal man does not choose salvation. No where does it say man has a choice or freewill towards salvation. Yes you must believe but God is not calling the whole world now, so some cannot believe until they are called.


    Which will happen in the ages to come.
     
  17. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    big amen


     
  18. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    All these verse speak of once you believe. You claim it is by choice or freewill? Well chapter and verse please.

    Besides God is not calling the whole world NOW.
     
    #18 Benoni, Aug 7, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2010
  19. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    But they are only figuratively dead. They are dead to God because of their trespasses and sin. But they aren't literally dead. They aren't actually dead. How does that have anything to do with their choices?

    That sure seems like a choice to me. They don't accept the things that come from God. They consider them foolish. Those are two choices they make. They choose not to accept it, and they choose to consider it foolish.

    Oh. Your wording was very misleading, so thanks for clearing that up.

    As I said earlier, I agree with that. But doesn't God choose to save you based on other choices you have made? (eg, that famous passage, grace without works is dead?)
     
  20. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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