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"hell"

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Benoni, Aug 7, 2010.

  1. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    #21 Benoni, Aug 7, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2010
  2. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    Aqualung,

    There is nothing figuratively dead about being dead in trespasses and sin; this is a spiritual state that was passed on to all of us by GGGGG Grandfather Adam.
    Carnal man is born dead. Dead to God, dead to spiritual realm, dead to all things of God; so dead he does not have the life to choose God. On the contrary all he has the power to do is choose death.
    Who is carnal man; he is a dead man for when Adam died we all died. Genesis 2: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
    Death: First of all lets stop looking at death and sin as something so terrible negative; if God did not want death, sin etc to happen to His creation, it would of never happened; for He is God. A God who has a will and a purpose that far exceeds to false imaginations of all men be it Christian or carnal.

    Genesis 5:5
    And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
    Adam died; it was God’s plan, but Adam was not dead not until Adam was 930 years old. Death the Bible is speaking of is a spiritual death,

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Romans 5:21
    That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Romans 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


    Romans 8:6
    For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    Eph, 2:1 And you hathhe quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
     
  3. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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  4. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
    Amen... But they did not choose salvation... They choose their carnal dead nature. Death.
     
  5. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    This is not speaking to the lost.
     
  6. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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    You are really bad about grabbing small bits of scripture and twisting them. Lets try taking a look at one chapter at a time and see what we can come up with. I can take individual scriptures and make them say anything I want.
     
  7. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    First you would have to show me where God’s Word declares Gehenna is a place for sinners of the world/heathen/gentiles/non believers etc; SOMETHING? I do not care the fire is or where it comes from; or what ever fire God pours out on mankind; what I am saying to it is not literal, totally figuratively. Yes the fires in the OT toward the disobedient or misinformed people who did not do the right thing; there earthy body was gone, burnt up; but always their spirit returns to God who gave it.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    What I am saying to you is figuratively, or by using the scriptural symbolic language found in both NT and OT. Or another word examples point to what God’s Word is declaring about Gehenna or the Lake of Fire; (by the way I already said I cannot link these two places in scripture) let us not ask believe and trust the established; but reached out to what God’s Word is saying.

    1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

    Matthew 5:22
    But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.


     
  8. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    So you agree that if one were to say that God caused the Fall, they would be advancing a falsehood?

    Mar 16:16 for instance. Those that believe, and are baptized, are saved... those that do not believe are not saved, they are damned.
     
  9. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    I show you a scriptural "example" where all these verses show us something about death and you attack me personally? How about getting your head out of your bias religion and see what God's Word is really is saying, not what you want it to say? You gave me no rebuttal with substance you gave me a whiny opinion.

    How did I twist anything; I posted the verses and showed you a pattern from Genesis all the way to the NT.


    1 Corinthians 10:11 (KJV) Now all[a] these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    1 Corinthians 10:11 (AMP) Now these things befell them by way of a figure [as an example and warning to us]; they were written to admonish and fit us for right action by good instruction, we in whose days the ages have reached their climax (their consummation and concluding period).


     
  10. rkm7878

    rkm7878 RKM7878

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  11. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    Sorry double post so here is another point.

    A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

    Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

    AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

    So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

    So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.


     
    #31 Benoni, Aug 7, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2010
  12. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    That is right but what you are missing about the Book of Revelation is it is totally spiritual not literal..

    John was in spirit on the Lord's day; no where does it say John was being literal in any since of tthe word. Unless you can show me using God's Word.




    [/QUOTE]
     
  13. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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  14. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Ugh, your weird font choices make it so difficult to edit your posts into reasonable quotes. I'm out of here.
     
  15. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    I like my font choice.

    It really is amazing how God people can believe that Jesus the lamb of God could have a place where he is totally helpless to do a thing for His creation. His wrath is the wrath of the lamb, not the wrath far far worst of Hitler or Stalin.


     
  16. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    The word hell it is a Teutonic pagan word which comes from a multiple of pagan places. I do believe in the three Greek words Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, and the Hebrew Sheol; but they simple mean the place of the dead.


    New Testament reference by Ballantine (1934) which contain footnotes, marginal readings and appendages which point out that several key Greek and Hebrew words regarding Hell have been MIStranslated by such Bible versions as the King James Bible.

    I have a list of Bibles which show the translations that contain the word Hell as well as the ones that don’t in the text is NOT exhaustive--we are discovering more translations all the time in which the translators did not feel justified in using the Teutonic pagan word Hell to translate the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.
    The word hell is not in Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. It is more then a mis-translation it a premeditated deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word

    So why do you believe God would do such a evil thing to billions of his creation?

    Gehenna.

    Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.

    Matthew 5:22
    But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

    Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.


    Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

    Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament. Did you know the Greeks have a temple in honor of the God of death ‘Hades”.

    She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave







     
  17. Benoni

    Benoni Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 30: 5 (NIV) 5 For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning.

    The Message (MSG) 4 -5 All you saints! Sing your hearts out to God!
    Thank him to his face! He gets angry once in a while, but across
    a lifetime there is only love. The nights of crying your eyes out
    give way to days of laughter.


    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW) His anger lasts only a moment.
    His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.


    Contemporary English Version (CEV) 5Your anger lasts a little while,
    but your kindness lasts for a lifetime.
    At night we may cry, but when morning comes we will celebrate.

    Psalm 103:9 He will not always accuse [us] or be angry forever.

    2 Corinthians 4:17 or our momentary light affliction (A) [a] is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. (B)

     
  18. kingdombuilder

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    Benoni pg. 2 :
    Quote:
    The Bible makes it clear that God wills all men to be saved(1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9).
    Amen. All will be saved.

    1 Corin 15: 21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23: But every man in his own order:


    _______________________________________________________________

    -Ok, at first I thought you were a Calvinist but from this post it appears you are actually a universalist. Let me deal with this verse and then respond general to your non-freewill argument.

    - Note that verse 22 states that "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." There are at least 2 ways this verse could be looked at:

    #1 : One could focus on the "all" in the verse
    which would cause one to conclude that everyone throughout history will one day be saved, either now or through the Lake of Fire.
    #2: One could focus on "in Adam" and "in Christ" in the verse which would cause one to come to the conclusion that all who are in Adam have and will continue to feel the affects of sin and die and all who are in and will be in Christ will be made alive.

    -I believe the context best fits #2. You should have continued to quote verse 23.
    Verse 23 in its entirety states the following:

    "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming..."
    Do you see how verse 23 fits with option #2 in reading verse 22? Looked at in this light, verse 22 does not teach all will be saved one day.
    ___________________________________________________________________

    - Now, as for the other topic at hand. While it may be true that all are dead in their sins and none seek for God on their own (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 3:11), it should be asked how is a person "quicked"/ made alive? Is it only by His Spirit? The Scriptures are clear that it is not simply by His Spirit.

    -You are right in pointing to context to determine a verse's meaning, but you did not go back far enough to get a broader picture/context of the verses in question.

    Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise..."
    Other scripture verses teach us about God's word, wheather spoken or written.

    Hebrews 4:12
    "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit..." (see also 1 Corinthians 10:4,5)

    Romans 10:8-15
    : in part reads "...How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher..."

    -So what we see through Scripture is that while God does indeed make alive we who were once dead, He generally makes alive through His word, both written and spoken.
    Scripture is also clear that we can reject his word

    Romans 10:16
    continuing 10:8-15 "However, they did not all heed the good news..."

    -God does make alive, but people do have the ability to resist His influence

    Matthew 23:37, 38
    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets...How often I wanted to gather your children together...and you were unwilling..."

    Acts 7:51
    "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."
    _______________________________________________________________________

    -Free will is clearly taught in Scripture. God's soverignty is also taught. There is no contradiction with this.

    Acts 2:23, 24
    "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

    -godless men under their own free will killed Jesus, yet they all were acting in accordance with God's predetermined plans.

    1 Peter 1:5
    "who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed..."

    -Both God's power and a Christian's faith working together are shown in this verse.

    -Similarly numerous verses speak of God's free gift of salvation, while others speak of people's choice to believe or dis-believe the Gospel. There is no contradiction.
     
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