Hatred Among Jewish People / Is Judaism Viable and Useful?

[dybmh]

I expect that many of you are aware of the in-fighting among Jewish people in America, but do you know how bad it is?

I think it's really really bad. And I hope that this debate will be an opportunity to debate 3 key elements that are ( IMHO ) the most important issues in Modern American Judaism.

1) Do Reform and Conservative Jewish people HATE Chasidic Jewish People?

2) Are Either the Reform and Conservative Jewish Movements in America viable? Will they last longer than 50 years?

3) Is Judaism ( the entire religion ) viable at all anymore as a useful, inspiring, belief system which encourages treating people in a decent, honorable and humane manner? And if not, maybe Judaism is something which should simply go the way of the dinosaur and the newspaper?

Since my views are often not valued by Jewish people in the Reform and Conservative Movements. ( In fact I think they do HATE me ) I will not offer my views on this in the thread unless asked for it specifically.

But I will say this. I have been involved in Reform and Conservative communities myself. And I have felt sincerely HATED by the clergy. So, ya know, maybe that's enough data to show my position in this debate.

I posted this in an open debate area so that people of all beliefs and non-belief have the opportunity to comment and ask questions.

And I hope those who are critics of Judaism, do ask questions. Because I am an open book. And I will answer any question asked, regardless of how controversial. And I promise to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Even if that means that the Reform and Conservative Jewish movements in America are described in an very uncomplimentary manner.

 

[dybmh]

@RabbiO ,@Jayhawker Soule ,

Shabbat Shalom, I cordially invite both of you to this debate as representatives of the Reform Jewish Movement.

 

[Left Coast]

Since my views are often not valued by Jewish people in the Reform and Conservative Movements. ( In fact I think they do HATE me ) I will not offer my views on this in the thread unless asked for it specifically.

But I will say this. I have been involved in Reform and Conservative communities myself. And I have felt sincerely HATED by the clergy. So, ya know, maybe that's enough data to show my position in this debate.

May I ask why you think people in these communities hate you? Is it because of views you hold? Or something else?

 

[dybmh]

May I ask why you think people in these communities hate you? Is it because of views you hold? Or something else?

Jealousy.

 

[dybmh]

May I ask why you think people in these communities hate you? Is it because of views you hold? Or something else?

Also, they see me in the same way that they see creationists.

They think that my point of view is causing war, and global conflict world-wide. It encourages belief as opposed to critical thinking.

 

[dybmh]

May I ask why you think people in these communities hate you? Is it because of views you hold? Or something else?

And finally...

they assume that I am a sexist pig. How could I not be, if I believe in Torah.

But they never take the time to get to know me, before making that assumption.

 

[Left Coast]

Jealousy.

Jealousy of what, do you think?

 

[Left Coast]

Also, they see me in the same way that they see creationists.

They think that my point of view is causing war, and global conflict world-wide. It encourages belief as opposed to critical thinking.

You've always struck me as a fairly progressive religious person. Do you hold some theological views that are more conservative that they disagree with?

 

[dybmh]

Jealousy of what, do you think?

This is something that is hard to describe to someone who is not familiar with Judaism in America.

If I may, would you mind telling me a little about your experience in and amonge Jewish poeple in America? And have you ever attended a Jewish ritual service?

Examples: Bar or Bat Miztvah? Baby Naming? Memorial Service? Shabbat Dinner at a freinds house? Passover Seder?

Have you ever attended any of these things? It's no problem. I just want to know how much background I need to give.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I will look and see what 'Jewish Renewal' is. Should take about 15 minutes. Just kidding.

Just in case this thread turns nasty (which it shouldn't), I want to remind you and others of yesterday's thread where you said you were having sleep problems. Things can look worse than they are and will tend to seem hopeless instead of hopeful.

 

[dybmh]

You've always struck me as a fairly progressive religious person. Do you hold some theological views that are more conservative that they disagree with?

Nope.

I would not describe myself as religious at all. But I get mistaken for a religious person all the time.

 

[Left Coast]

This is something that is hard to describe to someone who is not familiar with Judaism in America.

If I may, would you mind telling me a little about your experience in and amonge Jewish poeple in America? And have you ever attended a Jewish ritual service?

Examples: Bar or Bat Miztvah? Baby Naming? Memorial Service? Shabbat Dinner at a freinds house? Passover Seder?

Have you ever attended any of these things? It's no problem. I just want to know how much background I need to give.

I've had Jewish friends and I've always wanted to attend services to know what it's like, but I've never been. Treat me as a noob.

 

[dybmh]

I will look and see what 'Jewish Renewal' is. Should take about 15 minutes. Just kidding.

Just in case this thread turns nasty (which it shouldn't), I want to remind you and others of yesterday's thread where you said you were having sleep problems. Things can look worse than they are and will tend to seem hopeless instead of hopeful.

Bro I appreciate that. But I have felt this way for practically my entire adult life. As soon as my wife and I had our firstr Daughter, and she asked that we raise her Jewish, I started learning and seeing all the Hatred. It became my mission NOT to allow that same hatred to poison her. I can detail this more if you want. But the bottom line:

The antidote to Jewish Hatred is Chassidus. And that is my belief system. Problem is the Haters Hate Chassidus.

And the cycle of Hate continues... to quote the book Daniel ( irony intended )

The hate continues "from everlasting even to everlasting".

 

[dybmh]

I've had Jewish friends and I've always wanted to attend services to know what it's like, but I've never been. Treat me as a noob.

OK.

Here's the deal. It's a very odd mindset. It may be difficult to really put yourself in this position. if you want to understand or try to understand why anyone ( especially the clergy ) would be Jealous.... oh dear.... it's like opening up old tuper-ware that's in the back of the fridge...

Are you sure you want me to describe it? I'm happy to do so, I think it's supremely useful and productive to finally get some sunlight ( or dish-soap ) on this and start cleaning up this... mess.

 

[leov]

I expect that many of you are aware of the in-fighting among Jewish people in America, but do you know how bad it is?

I think it's really really bad. And I hope that this debate will be an opportunity to debate 3 key elements that are ( IMHO ) the most important issues in Modern American Judaism.

1) Do Reform and Conservative Jewish people HATE Chasidic Jewish People?

2) Are Either the Reform and Conservative Jewish Movements in America viable? Will they last longer than 50 years?

3) Is Judaism ( the entire religion ) viable at all anymore as a useful, inspiring, belief system which encourages treating people in a decent, honorable and humane manner? And if not, maybe Judaism is something which should simply go the way of the dinosaur and the newspaper?

Since my views are often not valued by Jewish people in the Reform and Conservative Movements. ( In fact I think they do HATE me ) I will not offer my views on this in the thread unless asked for it specifically.

But I will say this. I have been involved in Reform and Conservative communities myself. And I have felt sincerely HATED by the clergy. So, ya know, maybe that's enough data to show my position in this debate.

I posted this in an open debate area so that people of all beliefs and non-belief have the opportunity to comment and ask questions.

And I hope those who are critics of Judaism, do ask questions. Because I am an open book. And I will answer any question asked, regardless of how controversial. And I promise to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Even if that means that the Reform and Conservative Jewish movements in America are described in an very uncomplimentary manner.

look for the pattern, you find it is always the same - division. in my Gnostic view this world is controlled by one and the same power that manipulate people to create divisions. Divisions will eventually lead to finding common grounds.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Bro I appreciate that. But I have felt this way for practically my entire adult life. As soon as my wife and I had our firstr Daughter, and she asked that we raise her Jewish, I started learning and seeing all the Hatred. It became my mission NOT to allow that same hatred to poison her. I can detail this more if you want. But the bottom line:

The antidote to Jewish Hatred is Chassidus. And that is my belief system. Problem is the Haters Hate Chassidus.

And the cycle of Hate continues... to quote the book Daniel ( irony intended )

The hate continues "from everlasting even to everlasting".

That clarified for me. Also if you prefer to limit this debate to religious Jews we have an area called Same Faith Debates where you could start a similar debate thread, and I don't know if that is what you want to do.

So here is what I find in my 15 minutes: Reb Zalmon says on youtube that he wants Jewish Renewal (Title What is Jewish Renewal) to be genuine and to have the spine but to be soft on the outside, to have some of the benefits of a denomination but not the limitations. That is analogous to Chassidism in a way.

Jewish Renewal accepts Jews of all vintages as authentic: reform, conservative, super mega ultra orth, etc. Zalmon believes that this is the future of Judaism and that the denominations are already melting together, so he sees himself as just riding a wave that is already coming.

Of Chassids the site askmoses.com says

...In classic Jewish literature the term Chassid is used to describe someone who is pious, perfect, and/or goes beyond the letter of the law. The modern Chassid wouldn't claim to be pious, and definitely not perfected, but he does attempt to live Judaism beyond the letter of the law, with added kindness, joy, passion and observance...

(taken from askmoses)

My understanding is actually a little more informed than the above, but just to get us all on the same page I have posted the above. Here is my opinion, since we're in the religious debates area:

To me it looks simple. Each religious Jewish person and group must divorce itself somehow from those negative influences of the past, to start over -- all the violence and so forth that Jews have encountered, much of which is in our History books. The rub is that Judaism is supposed to always be a cut above. Its supposed to be oil and water and not become its surroundings, and you are all working out how you're going to do it. You, dybmh, are dealing I think with the effects of the shoah and the pogroms, which are very hateful and inspire paranoia. My statement is oversimplified I am sure, but I have the advantage that I don't know anything that you do and am not affected by everything that you are.

 

[Left Coast]

OK.

Here's the deal. It's a very odd mindset. It may be difficult to really put yourself in this position. if you want to understand or try to understand why anyone ( especially the clergy ) would be Jealous.... oh dear.... it's like opening up old tuper-ware that's in the back of the fridge...

Are you sure you want me to describe it? I'm happy to do so, I think it's supremely useful and productive to finally get some sunlight ( or dish-soap ) on this and start cleaning up this... mess.

I'm interested, but only if it won't take inordinate time and derail the thread. From my heathen Gentile perspective, I would expect you and Reform Jewish folks to be pretty similar ideologically. That's why it surprised me that there was this conflict and I wanted to know more.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

And I hope those who are critics of Judaism, do ask questions. Because I am an open book. And I will answer any question asked, regardless of how controversial.

well, I'm a general critic of the bible, so maybe I can contribute some relevant criticism, though I'm not sure. I guess I just always thought that bible based religions always seemed to sever humans away from everything I thought was spiritually interesting, but it's good that people follow them for a strong sense of tradition and systematic theology if that's what they want

However, to me all seems more like legalistic philosophy, and it seems like it ends up banning the original core of human spirituality. The magicians, the summoners, the seers, all these seem to be expelled from western religion. I think there are lines in there that even tell you to forget your own dreams, lest it might be divination to think about them. The characters seem fraught with inhibitions, and the focus is often trying on trying to fulfill desperate hopes by narrowly appealing to god. The inhibitory values against raw humanness seem to rise to a fever pitch, eventually blossoming with the jewish essenes and christian monks, extolling ever higher levels of self denial. Is that really how it is, or is spirituality more about opening more and more doors on the human journey... Why is the bible so coy about all of this, if it's at the cutting edge... The history of religion is a game of shame vs. magic, maybe it always was

 

[leov]

I expect that many of you are aware of the in-fighting among Jewish people in America, but do you know how bad it is?

I think it's really really bad. And I hope that this debate will be an opportunity to debate 3 key elements that are ( IMHO ) the most important issues in Modern American Judaism.

1) Do Reform and Conservative Jewish people HATE Chasidic Jewish People?

2) Are Either the Reform and Conservative Jewish Movements in America viable? Will they last longer than 50 years?

3) Is Judaism ( the entire religion ) viable at all anymore as a useful, inspiring, belief system which encourages treating people in a decent, honorable and humane manner? And if not, maybe Judaism is something which should simply go the way of the dinosaur and the newspaper?

Since my views are often not valued by Jewish people in the Reform and Conservative Movements. ( In fact I think they do HATE me ) I will not offer my views on this in the thread unless asked for it specifically.

But I will say this. I have been involved in Reform and Conservative communities myself. And I have felt sincerely HATED by the clergy. So, ya know, maybe that's enough data to show my position in this debate.

I posted this in an open debate area so that people of all beliefs and non-belief have the opportunity to comment and ask questions.

And I hope those who are critics of Judaism, do ask questions. Because I am an open book. And I will answer any question asked, regardless of how controversial. And I promise to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Even if that means that the Reform and Conservative Jewish movements in America are described in an very uncomplimentary manner.

Hatred at some point is a part of soul's journey. when soul becomes mature it changes into understanding.

 

[dybmh]

look for the pattern, you find it is always the same - division. in my Gnostic view this world is controlled by one and the same power that manipulate people to create divisions. Divisions will eventually lead to finding common grounds.

Bro... I really hope that U know me well enough by now... that asking **me** to look for a pattern is like asking a bear to take a dump in the woods...

pah-lease