Hard Polytheism: Why is it not considered seriously?

[Aupmanyav]

I understand your point but I do not see any reason why one who has always considered himself a proud pagan should not post here. I am the product of two pagan streams, the indigenous with their Gods and Goddesses like Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Durga, etc., and the Aryans with their Gods and Goddesses like Indra, Agni, Mitra, Saraswati, etc. Saying that to Abrahamics is OK because they changed their beliefs. We have not done so. We are still worshiping the deities whom our forefathers worshiped 5,000 years ago. We are not fake pagans.

Worshiping the Dawn (Chath Festival - Chhath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

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[Storm]

I understand your point but I do not see any reason why one who has always considered himself a proud pagan should not post here. I am the product of two pagan streams, the indigenous with their Gods and Goddesses like Shiva, Rama, Krishna, Durga, etc., and the Aryans with their Gods and Goddesses like Indra, Agni, Mitra, Saraswati, etc. Saying that to Abrahamics is OK because they changed their beliefs. We have not done so. We are still worshiping the deities whom our forefathers worshiped 5,000 years ago. We are not fake pagans.

You clearly don't see my point, because it had absolutely nothing to do with anyone at all being fake or unwelcome. I'm sorry that I gave you that impression. I also apologize for not recognizing you - there are a lot of new people here, and my phone doesn't display our religion labels. I'm sure speaking of yyou in the third person didn't help the misunderstanding.

I have no complaint with sycretism - I'm syncretic, myself. But we who practice in such a way must take great care to not misrepresent the original traditions we draw some when seeking to educate.

There are many Hindus who are deeply offended by being called pagan, and I know several personally. It's not my place (or yours) to declare them pagan when they do not consider themselves to be.

However, because such people aren't supposed to post in this DIR, it's disrespectful of us to be telling each other what they believe. That's not what the DIRs are for.

That's all. Nothing about anyone being fake or less-than. Just an insistance on respect within the confines of the unusual rules for this area of the forum.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, we always have debates in Hinduism forum about whether we are pagans or not. I, as I said, am a proud pagan. Dawn is called 'Chathi Maiyya' (Chath - Sixth, Maiyya - Mother, the worship of Mother on the sixth day of new moon). I do not know the connection between the sixth and Dawn/Sun, perhaps just a selected day.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I honestly believe that soft polytheism is a massive leap forward from hard polytheism. There seems to be this big hoop-la that is unconsciously asserting Reconstructionism in the Pagan community. This reliance on archaic and primitive understandings of how Paganism evolved is just flat out wrong.
The most dominant brand of Paganism by far in the West is Germanic and Germanic pagans historically went through the most adaptions out of any pagan community. This could just be because of the amount of historical records on it but by far Germanic paganism was very versatile. It was reinterpreted hundreds of times and this has left multiple cultural variants of every god int he pantheon.
This is why it is a linguistic mess when you try pronouncing a lot of these deities names. It was all spread through tribal encounters and gleefully mixed. Paganism is not about orthodoxy and any orthodoxy is temporary. The Greeks had Zeus take over Chronos' throne and the Sumerian/Babylon/Mesopotamian mythos are just flat out confusing because they endure radical changes each and every time. Enlil is lord, then Hadad, then Baal, Then Baal Hadad is mixed into the pot and it all goes to the ashes after that.
Paganism by default is a Pickem Mixem stew from the get go. It is prone to theological adaptions. So complaining about the relevancy of Hard vs Soft polytheism does not make you a pagan.
A true blooded pagan would have no issues with soft polytheism because it mixes into the concept of adaption. Seriously, read a history book about pagan cults. They are by no means dogmatic when you take into account that a lot of cults live under 1 culture.

 

[Storm]

Yes, we always have debates in Hinduism forum about whether we are pagans or not. I, as I said, am a proud pagan. Dawn is called 'Chathi Maiyya' (Chath - Sixth, Maiyya - Mother, the worship of Mother on the sixth day of new moon). I do not know the connection between the sixth and Dawn/Sun, perhaps just a selected day.

Yeah, that's what I mean. If you wanted to discuss it in Comparative Religion, I could have a grand old time, but it's different in an area where those who disagree aren't supposed to say so. That's just cheating, you know?

I do agree that there are many commonalities, and I'm not at all surprised that you blend them happily. I look forward to getting to know you better.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

If you add them all up, most religions are polytheistic, right? Monotheism is applied to only a few religions, even those few are among the most popular ones like Christianity, Islam ect. Hinduism is very diverse and some schools are so different is almost an entirely different religion rather than a sect.

 

[Storm]

No. It's true that only a few religions are monotheistic, but that does mean that not all religions are polytheistic.

I'm assuming that's not what you meant to say, would you mind rephrasing?

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's just cheating, you know?

Cheating? We worship Dyaus Pitar, Dyavah, and Varuna (Ouranos).

मिमातु दयौर अदितिर वीतये नः सं दानुचित्रा उषसो यतन्ताम l आचुच्यवुर दिव्यं कोशम एत रषे रुद्रस्य मरुतो गर्णानाः ll
Mimātu dyaur aditir vītaye naḥ saṃ dānucitrā uṣaso yatantām l ācucyavur divyaṃ kośam eta ṛṣe rudrasya maruto ghṛṇānāḥ ll
May Dyaus, the Infinite, roar for our banquet: may Dawns toil for us, glittering with moisture.
Lauded by thee, these Maruts, Sons o Rudra, O Ṛiṣhi, have sent down the heavenly treasure.
RigVeda Book 5, Hymn 59, Verse 8 (Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 5: HYMN LIX. Maruts.

नि षसाद धर्तव्रतो वरुणः पस्त्यास्वा l साम्राज्याय सुक्रतुः ll
ni ṣasāda dhṛtavrato varuṇaḥ pastyāsvā l sāmrājyāya sukratuḥ ll
Varuṇa, true to holy law, sits down among his people; he, most wise, sits there to govern all.
RigVeda, Book 1, Hymn 24, Verse 10 (Rig Veda: Rig-Veda Book 1: HYMN XXV. Varuṇa.

These two are just examples, there are many more. These hymns are chanted with love and conviction even today.

 

[Storm]

Having the discussion where the other side can't participate is cheating.

I don't know how you got to listing Gods, but that's all I meant.

 

[Aupmanyav]

This will be my last post in the topic. IMHO, it is difficult to deny the pagan status of Hinduism.

"Sham no Mitrah sham Varunah sham no Bhavatvaryamā
Sham na Indro Brihaspatih sham no Vishnururukramah."
May Mitra, Varuna and Aryama be good to us! May Indra and Brihaspati and Vishnu of great strides be good to us!
Shanti Mantras
The mantra was important even to the Mittani in 1,400 BC.

 

[Pleroma]

The Historical Vedic religion was indeed pagan but Hinduism which is an offshoot of the Historical Vedic religion is not necessarily a pagan religion or even a polytheistic religion.

 

[Storm]

This will be my last post in the topic. IMHO, it is difficult to deny the pagan status of Hinduism

Yes, in a forum where the Hindus who do precisely that are forbidden from stating their case, it's extremely easy to pretend there's no case to be made. It's also extremely dishonest, so how about you just stop banging that drum and get back to the topic?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Historical Vedic religion was indeed pagan but Hinduism which is an offshoot of the Historical Vedic religion is not necessarily a pagan religion or even a polytheistic religion.

Underline mine.

Yes, there are views which are not polytheistic, but the Hindu majority still is polytheistic.
Secondly, Hinduism is not an off-shoot of Vedic religion, it is a amalgamation of two pagan beliefs, Aryan and indigenous (which have Shiva, Rama, Krishna, and Durga; who are not even mentioned in the Vedas)

Mods, if I am ruffling a few feathers, you may please take some posts to forums like General Religions or Comparative religions.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

No. It's true that only a few religions are monotheistic, but that does mean that not all religions are polytheistic.

I'm assuming that's not what you meant to say, would you mind rephrasing?

No what I mean is that most are but I didn't say the ones that weren't monotheistic must be polytheistic. I know not all religions are polytheistic but a lot are, if you add all of them up. Druidism, Kemetism, Heathenry, the Baltic or Greco-Roman religion, sects of Hinduism ect. Some of course don't believe in a "deity" so to speak, like Buddhism and Jainism. Zoroastrianism, while has a decent sized population, isn't nearly as big as Sikhism, Christianity, or Islam. Judaism, while influential, doesn't have that many followers either in comparison.

 

[Storm]

No what I mean is that most are but I didn't say the ones that weren't monotheistic must be polytheistic. I know not all religions are polytheistic but a lot are, if you add all of them up. Druidism, Kemetism, Heathenry, the Baltic or Greco-Roman religion, sects of Hinduism ect. Some of course don't believe in a "deity" so to speak, like Buddhism and Jainism. Zoroastrianism, while has a decent sized population, isn't nearly as big as Sikhism, Christianity, or Islam. Judaism, while influential, doesn't have that many followers either in comparison.

OK.

Sorry, sometimes I get confused by silly errors that a neurotypical would have no trouble with.

 

[Revasser]

Hard polytheism definitely gets a bad rap sometimes, in my experience in some pagan circles (and is also preferred in some, but I've found the former to be significantly more common).

I imagine there's a lot of reasons for it. One is probably that most neopagans grew up and are living in a culture steeped in monotheism and with the fairly widely accepted view is that pre-Christian polytheism is "just mythology". That influence can be hard to shake even when one is determined to. I suspect that for some, soft polytheism is a compromise between a desire to return in some fashion to a pre-Christian way of seeing things and the overarching view of their home culture.

Another reason is almost certainly the influence of the monist take of some sophisticated Eastern philosophies, since Orientalism is or has been very strong in the New Age movement in the West and neopaganism has been (right or wrong) very closely associated with it for some time.

Personally, I find hard polytheism more appealing, interesting and (as far as such as things go) more believable. I figure any powerful or godly beings that would take any interest in humanity are likely to be similar to us to the extent that we and they would be able to relate to each other in a meaningful way. Which for me tends to mean that they are individuals with distinct personalities, quirks, flaws and desires.

That and talk of ineffable mysteries and Ones and such always strikes me as a shade pretentious in the context of such practical, earthy paths.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Wait, what about Shinto or Chinese Folk Religion?

Uncertain about Chinese folk religion, but Shinto thrives in Japan. Shrines and temples are regularly attended and festivals are a common occurrence.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

They’re not all the same: Meet some other hard polytheists

Why is Hard polytheism not considered seriously nowadays by pagans? Many are soft polytheists and majority of them are pagan atheists.

I suspect it's because many converts to Paganism come either from a monotheist background (usually Christianity) or from atheist backgrounds. Going from one god to many is hard enough; going from no gods at all to many is quite the jump. It doesn't help that contemporary society is taught the old gods via the lens of history, and that lens compartmentalises the gods, making them seem simple or less practical.

 

[Riverwolf]

Uncertain about Chinese folk religion, but Shinto thrives in Japan. Shrines and temples are regularly attended and festivals are a common occurrence.

Exactly what I was getting at. ^_^

Chinese Folk Religion (that is to say, Shénjiào or Shéndào), I understand, is going through something of a revival.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe because many people are looking at "believing in God" as only believing in one God. Also, I find when one says God, the other party thinks its the Christian God.

Also, when I hear polytheist, I'm thinking more people believe in different aspects of life that each aspects represents a God itself rather than multiple Creators? or multiple parties that intervene in our life on earth?

It's a lot of cleaning out our generalization, bias, and sterotyping lens and learning from and educating people who will listen about beliefs that differ from theirs.

I can't give too much of an educated answer, since I don't believe in distinct God or Gods. If I did, though, I would be frustrated too.

They’re not all the same: Meet some other hard polytheists

Why is Hard polytheism not considered seriously nowadays by pagans? Many are soft polytheists and majority of them are pagan atheists.