Gravity and the Expanding Universe

[Subduction Zone]

And if he doesn't know where it came from, then what? Is your argument that if no one knows then it must be your god?

Actually it is a "they". There were three different people that he referred to. For example the geologist of fifty years was @shunyadragon . But he does appear to be making a god of the gaps argument.

 

[ppp]

Actually it is a "they". There were three different people that he referred to. For example the geologist of fifty years was @shunyadragon . But he does appear to be making a god of the gaps argument.

Actually, when I said "he" I was referring to you in response to @rrobs pointless query, "...but maybe you would know?" Sorry, if I misgendered you.

 

[alsome]

Try this thread: (if it works)
If "everything is energy" then what does this mean?

 

[rrobs]

And if he doesn't know where it came from, then what?

That's what I asked gnostic. Since he's that one that doesn't know where it came from, ask him.

Is your argument that if no one knows then it must be your god?

I didn't really say, but no I don't think it must be God. I think it unequivocally is God. I further believe that at some level all people know it was God. Most bury it, but anybody with eyes to see the universe or mitochondria knows deep down it is God. They deny it, but it's still the truth.

Rom 1:20,

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
​

There you go, now you can call me a fool. But in so doing, you are demonstrating a high degree of foolishness yourself.

Ps 53:1a,

To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, [A Psalm] of David. The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God...
​

If you were to make Jesus you Lord and believe in you heart that God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9) your foolishness would turn to wisdom. I'll pray for that very thing.

 

[rrobs]

Why do you keep asking this pointless question?

Part of wisdom is knowing which questions are of value and which ones are not.

We already determined that you don't know and I accepted that without comment.

Joe W commented on the not knowing. Since that was already brought up, why not ask him why he keeps bringing up pointless arguments. Am I the only one who can't repeat something? Why would that be? I trust you had no such biases in your geology research.

 

[rrobs]

But he does appear to be making a god of the gaps argument.

Check your premise. I don't think God left any gaps when He created the universe and all that is in it, including apes and men.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We already determined that you don't know and I accepted that without comment.

Joe W commented on the not knowing. Since that was already brought up, why not ask him why he keeps bringing up pointless arguments. Am I the only one who can't repeat something? Why would that be? I trust you had no such biases in your geology research.

He does not bring up pointless arguments. That is what you are doing. And we all have biases. That is why scientists rely on the scientific method. One of its design features is that it minimizes and corrects biases.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Check your premise. I don't think God left any gaps when He created the universe and all that is in it, including apes and men.

LOL! Please learn the meaning of phrases. You clearly have no clue what your error was. No one is claiming that you said God left any gaps when they point out that you are using a god of the gaps argument.

And don't forget. You are an ape.

 

[ppp]

I didn't really say, but no I don't think it must be God. I think it unequivocally is God.

Those are the same claim. You are just repeating yourself.
And what you are saying is not rational. Him not knowing is not evidence that you do know. Your saying that you do know is not evidence that you know. It is only evidence that you think you know.

Most bury it, but anybody with eyes to see the universe or mitochondria knows deep down it is God. They deny it, but it's still the truth.

That is just a little public ego masturbation. Like guys in college who publicly proclaimed how amazing there were in bed, and that all the women wanted to have sex with them. And like the guys who wrote the Bible. And the Koran. All the same.

 

[halbhh]

..

I think that if one gets into a pit wrestling and then it turns into a mud wrestling, one can of course laugh and go hose off the mud, clean up.

It's not important to faith -- not important to real faith (which must be centered on Christ) -- but of course we are never told anywhere how much time passed during verse 1 of Genesis chapter 1 before the moment in verse 2:

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

[unspecified amount of time passes during the above.... then arrives a moment:]

2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

[Waterworld Earth! Or a precursor, an early moment of formation. Possibly even before sunlight can get through the remaining dust/water of accretion; water seems to be the 2nd most abundant molecule in the universe, after hydrogen gas]


Ergo, we therefore have no idea whatsoever from this unknown time during verse 1 then of how old the Universe and Earth are (except by attempts to figure out via observations). The time during verse 1 could be 9.3 seconds or 9.3 billion years, and so on. From astronomy though, we have slowly been discovering much of what happened out there.

 

[ratiocinator]

I further believe that at some level all people know it was God. Most bury it, but anybody with eyes to see the universe or mitochondria knows deep down it is God. They deny it, but it's still the truth.

I believe this speaks volumes about your own insecurity...

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually it is a "they". There were three different people that he referred to. For example the geologist of fifty years was @shunyadragon . But he does appear to be making a god of the gaps argument.

No God of the gaps here, just Natural Laws and natural processes are the way God Creates.

 

[shunyadragon]

The natural laws...where did they come from?

Subduction Zone, a geologist for 50 years, a anti ID guy said they don't know. I didn't ask him where the energy, the original mass, of the universe came from, but maybe you would know.

Natural Laws are simply the nature of our physical existence with no known beginning. Our physical existence has no objectively verified known beginning. The challenge is no more meaningful than where did God come from.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No God of the gaps here, just Natural Laws and natural processes are the way God Creates.

I was not accusing you of a God of the Gaps argument. Sorry if that was not clear.

 

[ecco]

The second verse of Genesis in most texts say, "the earth was without form and void..." The Hebrew texts can be translated as, "the earth became without form and void..." There are several other verses that indicate that the original earth was destroyed by a cataclysmic event. The upshot is that the original earth that God created, the one He created before it became without form and void could well have been 4.5 billion years old.

"Hebrew texts can be translated"? CAN BE? When can they be? When it suits your purpose?

Of course, you don't have the slightest iota of evidence that it was. All you have is wishful thinking.

But if, for the sake of discussion, we accept your version...That would show that your God created the earth, let it exist for ~4.5 billion years, then wiped it out and started over, then a thousand years later got upset again and wiped out all but a tiny group of humans and animals.

He's not very good at this, is He?

 

[ecco]

That's what is commonly thought, but it's not accurate. Actually, the book claims it was written by men who were inspired by God. Also, the scriptures are not religion. Religion is man made, the scriptures are God inspired. Huge difference.

You assert that scriptures are inspired by God. But you have absolutely no evidence for that. Quite the opposite. There is a lot of stuff in both OT and NT that point to the scriptures being written by men without any input from a knowledgeable entity. Ya know, things like the wood of a hitching post affecting the spots on a goat. There are also many examples in your scriptures that are thinly veiled copies of what other men believed and used as scripture. Things like birth to a virgin.

Ancient Boeotian bell-krater showing Zeus impregnating Danaë in the form of a shower of gold, circa 450-425 BC

 

[rrobs]

He does not bring up pointless arguments. That is what you are doing. And we all have biases. That is why scientists rely on the scientific method. One of its design features is that it minimizes and corrects biases.

What, exactly, is pointless about asking where natural laws came from? Don't scientists ask just such questions?

 

[rrobs]

LOL! Please learn the meaning of phrases. You clearly have no clue what your error was. No one is claiming that you said God left any gaps when they point out that you are using a god of the gaps argument.

And don't forget. You are an ape.

You might Google Images for apes and people. Look closely and you'll see a difference. You might also go to a zoo and try to carry on a conversation about cosmology with an ape or two.You'll understand the difference between people and apes.

 

[ecco]

Even if the Bible is a fairy tale, at least one should know the fairy tale before talking about it. It is usually clear when I'm talking with someone who might know the tradition, but they know little of what it actually says. Not to be critical, but I believe you fall into that category. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. The problem comes when someone thinks they know when the facts show they really don't. Most already know what it says before the even crack the book open. Not very scientific.

I know that it says the entire earth was flooded and the only survivors were a few people and a number of animals on a wooden boat that would have survived the turbulent waters of a world-wide flood.

I know the Gospels are written from the perspective of first-hand observations. This, in and of itself, is clear evidence of the Gospels being fabrications.

So, specifically on what do you base your assertion that I "know little of what it actually says"?

I sure don't know from any reading of the OT that supports your contention that there was another earth before this one.

 

[gnostic]

The natural laws...where did they come from?

Subduction Zone, a geologist for 50 years, a anti ID guy said they don't know. I didn't ask him where the energy, the original mass, of the universe came from, but maybe you would know.

Natural law come from observation of nature or the natural phenomena, and from understanding the observation and evidence and explaining nature (hence NATURAL SCIENCE).

Hence, so natural laws are man understanding of nature, through scientific investigation, subjected to Methodological Naturalism and using Scientific Method.

The Scientific Method involved the formulation of explanatory/predictive models (eg hypothesis, scientific theory) and testing the models (eg observations and acquiring evidence, through fieldwork or through lab experiments).

Natural law has nothing to do with magic, supernatural phenomena, divine miracles or creation, spirits, etc, all of them outside the purview of natural sciences and physical sciences.

There are two main types of questions that scientists tried to answer in PHYSICAL SCIENCES and NATURAL SCIENCES:

1. WHAT?
2. HOW?

There are no WHO being the causation of natural phenomena or physical .

For instances:

• WHAT is it or WHAT they are?
• HOW do they work?
• What possible application it may have? (That is, once you understand you answered the above questions)
• HOW would you make it work?

There are WHO questions, but they often fall under the SOCIAL SCIENCES.

Social Sciences differed from Physical sciences and Natural Sciences, where it is studies of human interactions, such as human behavior/psychology, human cultures, human activities. Social sciences can be studies of humans as individuals or as populations (eg in community or society).