Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[NIX]

What i am saying is that if you hold the man responsible for the child ( which means he has to financially support him/her ) because he had sex with a woman,

A man is not held responsible for supporting anyone 'because he had sex with a woman'.

A man is held responsible (if, when and) because the woman he impregnated successfully supported and delivered his child to term. (with no help whatsoever needed or demanded of him)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

A man is not held responsible for supporting anyone 'because he had sex with a woman'.

A man is held responsible (if, when and) because the woman he impregnated successfully supported and delivered his child to term. (with no help whatsoever needed or demanded of him)

Exactly. :yes:

After the birth of the child, then the father, the mother, and the local circuit court if necessary can decide how best to proceed in the best interest of all parties, including the child.

 

[Alceste]

LOL I forgot about the episiotomy and its scars.

Happened to me. I had a median 2nd degree episiotomy done to me during delivery. And without my consent, too.

Ah well, so what, right? I'm not that attached to my vagina anyway. Doctors should be able to chop it up without my consent any time that would be in somebody else's best interests.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Ah well, so what, right? I'm not that attached to my vagina anyway. Doctors should be able to chop it up without my consent any time that would be in somebody else's best interests.

It's pretty much par for the course, isn't it? To equate actual scars, physical pain, sickness, risk of complication, etc. with paying child support? And that a woman's bodily scarring is seen as merely inconsequential.

The main difference between the bodily risk of complications, scarring, loss of blood or organs, or death is pregnancy and childbirth for women, and war for men.

There are FAR more women and underage girls who are finding themselves in a position of pregnancy and childbirth than men and boys who are finding themselves fighting battles.

And we call them heroes and erect monuments in their honor for their sacrifice. A woman who suffers the complications from pregnancy is merely fulfilling some evolutionary or "intelligently designed" role. If he faces these risks, willingly or unwilingly, he is lauded as courageous, selfless, heroic. But if a woman faces the risks of pregnancy and childbirth, the response is....

"So what?"

 

[Alceste]

It's pretty much par for the course, isn't it? To equate actual scars, physical pain, sickness, risk of complication, etc. with paying child support? And that a woman's bodily scarring is seen as merely inconsequential.

The main difference between the bodily risk of complications, scarring, loss of blood or organs, or death is pregnancy and childbirth for women, and war for men.

There are FAR more women and underage girls who are finding themselves in a position of pregnancy and childbirth than men and boys who are finding themselves fighting battles.

And we call them heroes and erect monuments in their honor for their sacrifice. A woman who suffers the complications from pregnancy is merely fulfilling some evolutionary or "intelligently designed" role. If he faces these risks, willingly or unwilingly, he is lauded as courageous, selfless, heroic. But Youif a woman faces the risks of pregnancy and childbirth, the response is....

"So what?"

I know! It's eerie - I feel like I'm talking to people who don't see me as a person in these abortion debates. It's like I don't even exist, except as an abstract concept. A means to an end. They have more empathy, compassion and concern for an accidentally fertilized egg than they do for me. Doesn't feel very nice to be seen as less human, less important and less deserving of compassion and care than a non-sentient, non-sapient mass of cells that feels no sensation.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I know! It's eerie - I feel like I'm talking to people who don't see me as a person in these abortion debates. It's like I don't even exist, except as an abstract concept. A means to an end. They have more empathy, compassion and concern for an accidentally fertilized egg than they do for me.

I once thought that way. And I am truly so sorry for ever considering you and every other woman (including myself) for thinking that way. It's completely dehumanizing.

Doesn't feel very nice to be seen as less human, less important and less deserving of compassion and care than a non-sentient, non-sapient mass of cells that feels no sensation.

Less human and less important not just in comparison to a non-sapient mass of cells, but in comparison to a man's sensitivites and sense of leadership, to a deity that commands her to be quiet, to social and cultural taboos when it comes to a woman's speech and dress, and lately when it comes to rape claims and how her accusations are comparable to being raped.

No, it doesn't feel nice at all.

 

[NIX]

I know! It's eerie - I feel like I'm talking to people who don't see me as a person in these abortion debates. It's like I don't even exist, except as an abstract concept. A means to an end. They have more empathy, compassion and concern for an accidentally fertilized egg than they do for me. Doesn't feel very nice to be seen as less human, less important and less deserving of compassion and care than a non-sentient, non-sapient mass of cells that feels no sensation.

Mass scale anti-abortion propaganda completely downplays- really downgrades and denagrates- the entirety of a woman's life long well being to the imaginary equivalent of an inconvenient 9 month 'gig'.

You can't be fully cognizant and compassionate of the totality of the woman's life and being, and hold to your idealisms. It just isn't possible.

 

[Alceste]

Mass scale anti-abortion propaganda completely downplays- really downgrades and denagrates- the entirety of a woman's life long well being to the imaginary equivalent of an inconvenient 9 month 'gig'.

You can't be fully cognizant and compassionate of the totality of the woman's life and being, and hold to your idealisms. It just isn't possible.

You'd think so, right? But maybe you can if the social pressure is compelling enough. The most bizarre and outrageous thing I've read in all of these debates was Father Heathen's link to stories of pro-life activists coming in for abortions.

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose

Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

A few behave in a very hostile manner, such as calling clinic staff "murderers." Years ago, a clinic counselor in British Columbia told me that one of her patients went into the procedure room apparently fine with her decision to have an abortion. During the abortion, at a stage when it was too late to stop the procedure, the woman started screaming "You murderers!" and other invectives at everyone in the room.

 

[Alceste]

I once thought that way. And I am truly so sorry for ever considering you and every other woman (including myself) for thinking that way. It's completely dehumanizing.

Oh, that is totally OK. I am sorry for you spending all those years trapped in an ideology that denied you your full allotment humanity because of your penislessness.


Also, I for one will say it: You are a hero for making the courageous decision to squeeze several large new human beings out of your vagina. Your sacrifice and suffering is very much appreciated!

Less human and less important not just in comparison to a non-sapient mass of cells, but in comparison to a man's sensitivites and sense of leadership, to a deity that commands her to be quiet, to social and cultural taboos when it comes to a woman's speech and dress, and lately when it comes to rape claims and how her accusations are comparable to being raped.

No, it doesn't feel nice at all.

Yeah - the impact of misogyny is not so much a feeling of being despised so much as a feeling of being invisible. Hateful comments toward women would be easier to take than just "So what?"

 

[Debater Slayer]

Well, a good thing is that the stories in this thread make me appreciate mothers even more. I'm not sure I'd be able to handle the equivalent of childbirth pain. :no:

 

[Alceste]

Well, a good thing is that the stories in this thread make me appreciate mothers even more. I'm not sure I'd be able to handle the equivalent of childbirth pain. :no:

I know it's weird, but every time a sensitive, considerate, thoughtful man like you chips into these debates it kind of makes me want to have your baby.

 

[Wirey]

I know it's weird, but every time a sensitive, considerate, thoughtful man like you chips into these debates it kind of makes me want to have your baby.

Don't fall for it! She's the Canadian version of a praying mantis!

 

[Storm]

Let`s say for a hypothetical that I am pro choice and I leave a woman pregnant.

She decides to have the baby even though none of us wanted the baby when we had sex.

Am I legaly bound to provide to that baby even though I didn`t want to have him/her?

:yes:

 

[MysticSang'ha]

:yes:

Agreed.

Abortion is under the providence of the woman entirely. It is her body that is being utilized for the duration of the pregnancy, the labor, and the delivery. Her decision against having an abortion may or may not have anything to do with deciding to keep the child, but it has everything to do with her decision to follow through with assuming the risks and complications with the pregnancy.

Assuming these risks are entirely her decision. Nobody else's.

AFTER a successful live birth, then both the birth father and birth mother assume the responsibility of deciding custody arrangements for the child. The law does not recognize who has custody while the fetus is in utero before viability, but after birth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That reminds me of an important point: from what I've heard, since the child is not considered a child until birth, parental rights can't be waived until after birth. This means that, a parent can't sign away custody to the child (for adoption, for instance) until the child is actually born.

Before that point, signing away parental rights and responsibilities would be like selling a car despite not owning a car - you don't have the thing that you're trying to get rid of, so you can't get rid of it.