I would argue that the term "tradition Judaism" has merit and was never intended to refer to the 2nd Temple Period. (If we go back far enough in any culture the term 'traditional' loses meaning.)
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Good translations of the Tanakh and Bible?
- Thread starter StarryNightshade
- Start date
What is your favorite translation of Gen. 2:17?
roger1440
I do stuff
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
My point is that there simply is no such entity as "traditional Judaism" as Judaism has always been in transition. Now, some may prefer to use that term maybe with some sort of restricted definition, but then they need to clarify how they are using it. I have used that terminology at times, but then I sometimes had to define what I meant.
Again, Judaism is not, nor ever was, a static religion-- nor should it be, imo. It's not a matter of either/or, but a blending of the fixed (Torah/Talmud) with the mobile (interpretations/applications).
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Gen.2[17] "...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
Part of a rather lengthy allegory dealing with the issues of how sin came into our existence, namely to disobey God in this case. And your's?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I understand your point. I simply do not believe that it holds value.
CMike
Well-Known Member
I just finished reading the book Exodus.
After Israel became a state it took in many refugees.
One big group of refugees came from Yemen.
The Yemenites walked a great distance to get to the place where they were to be airlifed to Israel.
The book discribes how they lived so far out of the sticks, they didn't have electricity, indoor pumbing, etc.
However, they were deeply devout jews. They had great respect for the Rabbis.
In fact, according to the book, their plane was ready to go but they wouldn't travel on Shabbos. They waited until after Shabbos.
They also spoke Hebrew.
They adhered to the Torah very closely.
However, they were so primitive, that they thought the loudspeaker in the plane during an announcement came from G-D.
They also started a fire in the middle of the plane in order to keep warm.
These Yeminites are a great example of how traditonal judiasm has kept the jews alive for thousands of years.
Not only that but one of the advantages of services being in Hebrew is that you can go anywhere in the world to a synagogue and still be able to follow the prayer.
What has kept the jews alive for so many here are:
1) The adherence to the Torah
2) The customs
3) Traditions
4) The hebrew language
These things have never changed.
There are those on the left who try to change them but they are not part of traditional Judaism.
After Israel became a state it took in many refugees.
One big group of refugees came from Yemen.
The Yemenites walked a great distance to get to the place where they were to be airlifed to Israel.
The book discribes how they lived so far out of the sticks, they didn't have electricity, indoor pumbing, etc.
However, they were deeply devout jews. They had great respect for the Rabbis.
In fact, according to the book, their plane was ready to go but they wouldn't travel on Shabbos. They waited until after Shabbos.
They also spoke Hebrew.
They adhered to the Torah very closely.
However, they were so primitive, that they thought the loudspeaker in the plane during an announcement came from G-D.
They also started a fire in the middle of the plane in order to keep warm.
These Yeminites are a great example of how traditonal judiasm has kept the jews alive for thousands of years.
Not only that but one of the advantages of services being in Hebrew is that you can go anywhere in the world to a synagogue and still be able to follow the prayer.
What has kept the jews alive for so many here are:
1) The adherence to the Torah
2) The customs
3) Traditions
4) The hebrew language
These things have never changed.
There are those on the left who try to change them but they are not part of traditional Judaism.
CMike
Well-Known Member
Judaism is a static religion. Changes have ocurred because jews have had to adapt to them due to technology and a change of circumstances.
The Torah is still the same Torah from thousands of years ago. There are still the 613 commandments.
The holidays are the same. Obvoiusly, Chanukah and Purim occurred after these events.
Passover is still Passover. It's kept in the same way.
Very little has changed nor should it.
Morality and life guideliness are perpetual.
CMike
Well-Known Member
The jews that adhere to the Torah and keep the traditions and customs that jews have kept for thousands of years. That would be a definition of "traditional".
But it's even more complicated than that. Let me remind you that we do not have a creed in Judaism, therefore freedom of thought has long been expected. For example, according to the Talmud, each male Jew is expected to add one new commentary during his lifetime to our collection. BTW, I'm still working on mine.
Anyone can have an opinion and jews are always encouraged to ask many questions.
Prove that the big bang occurred? You can't. It's only a theory.
As far as the theory of evolution, it's only a theory. No one can prove when it started, how it started, and how it has occurred.
I
Ezekiel 37
26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever
27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."
Whenever, "Sanctuary" has been mentioned it refers to the Temple.
27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
Why do you think they wouldn't know what a synagogue is?
Obvoiusly if the story of chanukah didn't occur yet it wouldn't have occurred.
However, it wasn't taken out of the Torah it was never there. Therefore, the holiday didn't change.
Yes, there are many traditions and customs that haven't changed or haven't changed much, but one simply cannot say there hasn't been changes.
Avi1001
reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Well stated, Metis. I fully agree that Judaism is a dynamic religion. Indeed, I seek the most rapidly changing aspects of it myself. I think religion is only meaningful if it has relevance to us, in our daily lives, every day.
Your argument about tradition is a bit unclear to me as well. Most of us have some sort of notion about what tradition means. Although I think your point about frequent change in Judaism is correct. Maybe you will need to clarify and amplify your idea for us to understand ?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
OK, as you clarified how you were using the term "traditional". However, check the last sentence of your own post here where you said this: "Yes, there are many traditions and customs that haven't changed or haven't changed much, but one simply cannot say there hasn't been changes." This is exactly the point I was making, so it appears that we agree here.
In science, we almost never use the word "prove" because there an implication that somehow this should be viewed as some sort of an absolute truth, therefore we can stop looking. No, we use the word "evidence" most often, and there's substantial evidence for the BB and overwhelming evidence for the basic process of evolution. Matter, of fact, that things change over time is pretty much common sense. Unfortunately, some people read more into the ToE than is actually there.
But notice the above says nothing as far as whom shall rebuild it. I mentioned to you that I knew Rabbi Rosenzwieg quite well, and in one of our conversations in Israel this issue came up, and he said the general consensus is that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple, but that is not completely agreed upon by all scholars.
Synagogues were not a 1st Temple item, and it's unclear when they started to be built, but it's pretty much agreed that at least the theological groundwork for this was the destruction of the 1st Temple and the Babylonian exile. Without the Temple, there appears to have been a need for a place to gather, study, and worship, and synagogues fit that bill. Therefore, a 1st Temple Jew would have no idea of what a "synagogue" is.
I never said or implied that it was in Torah, only that it is a custom that doesn't go back to the Temple periods, thus giving further indication that customs sometimes do change or, in this case, can be added.
Exactly.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Thanks, Avi. So, let me try and deal with your question.
There's an old saying that goes "everything changes, nothing stays the same", and this is true with what we call "Judaism". All institutions evolve one way or another, and ours is no exception.
So, let me ask a rhetorical question: at which point can we label Judaism to be "traditional"? 1st Temple? 2nd? post Temple? And which element? Pharisees? Saduccees? Samaritans? Karaites? modern Orthodox? Chasidim? Conservative? Reform? Reconstructionist?
To me, all of the above groups represent different ideas within our history, including modern history, and to try and label one of these as being "traditional" is like trying describe an entire ball game with one word.
Is this explanation what you were looking for?
Talmudic (Halachic) Judaism.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes.
The basis of Purim is found in the Tanakh.
Well, OK. However, there are the directions in Torah to observe it in haste with our loins girded, and I haven't been to many Pesach celebrations where this was observed in that manner. Matter of fact, my family's observance is quite short compared to probably most, and yet it is several hours long, which doesn't even include the many hours of preparation. Therefore, "haste" is not the operative word here, and if I celebrated wearing a thong, no one would eat.
To me, change should be slow and well thought out.
Agreed, to a point. We have seen guidelines sometimes altered, which was one of the effects of the acceptance of the Talmud.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
What about pre-Talmudic Judaism? Was it somehow invalid?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
BTW, our discussion involving "tradition" reminds me of a joke some of you may have heard:
A young rabbi was conducting his first service at his new assignment, when he got to the Sh'ma, part of the congregation stood, some sat, and then they yelled "Stand up!" or "Sit down!" at each other.
The rabbi was confused, so after the service he talked to a few of the elders who said this has been going on for quite a while. The rabbi asked if any of them were at the shul when it first opened, but none of them were. However, they said old Isaac at a nursing home would likely remember.
So, the rabbi went there and asked old Isaac "Do you remember what the original tradition was at the services was when the Sh'ma was said because I just conducted a service this last Shabbos, and some sat down, some stood up, and then they yelled at each other?!".
Isaac answered "Yep, that's the tradition, alright."
A young rabbi was conducting his first service at his new assignment, when he got to the Sh'ma, part of the congregation stood, some sat, and then they yelled "Stand up!" or "Sit down!" at each other.
The rabbi was confused, so after the service he talked to a few of the elders who said this has been going on for quite a while. The rabbi asked if any of them were at the shul when it first opened, but none of them were. However, they said old Isaac at a nursing home would likely remember.
So, the rabbi went there and asked old Isaac "Do you remember what the original tradition was at the services was when the Sh'ma was said because I just conducted a service this last Shabbos, and some sat down, some stood up, and then they yelled at each other?!".
Isaac answered "Yep, that's the tradition, alright."
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Rest assure that 2000 years ago the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes and Zealots argued about who actually keeps golden traditions correctly.
In my book, strictness doesn't equal contribution to the welfare and progress of our people. Applying all our beliefs, traditions, texts, and rules of many centuries ago to our reality today while ignoring current circumstances can't be a good thing. In fact it means ignoring the movement of our people through the ages of history, our ordeals, achievements, and challenges and instead pretend we are forever static, and should remain so.
While preserving, celebrating, and studying Jewish traditions is admirable... a people, a society, and a nation don't exist solely on their dietary habits or their folklore. What I find more admirable is reinterpreting Judaism in light of how the world is today.
The quest for personal authenticity begins with much more concrete factors than claiming the other members of society are the non-authentic ones. Really, if all one's 'Jewish learning' is summed up by looking down on other branches and streams in society, then the major teachings have certainly been removed in order to sanctify a foreign political dogma. Might as well dance around a golden calf.
There is no Jewish authenticity if we compare it to the days of the Talmud, Second Temple Period, First Temple Period or the many other periods in which Judaism or its predecessors have existed. Modern Judaism, whether Haredi, orthodox, traditional, conservative, reform, or 'secular' is a modern day's faith, it exists in our time, the 21st century. The age of cinema, fast food, information, and direct flights. No longer is it common to have pilgrims traveling by caravans to Jerusalem.
The Bible deals with many things, political strategy, military strategy, diplomacy, morality, and many other activities of the secular kind. All these are just as authentic (if not more) than how religiously strict a Hebrew, an Israelite, or a Jew was.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Very well said, imo, and I completely agree with you.
BTW, tomorrow (I hope) I am going to get at creating a thread on Jewish Renewal that Avi requested from me about a week ago (I hate rushing nto thinhgs
), and I hope you'll throw in your two cents even if you're unfamiliar with the movement. It seems to fit in nicely with what you wrote.
Avi1001
reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Sure Metis, I think I understand your point, and agree that change is essential. It seems like you are working with the idea of impermenance. On the other hand, I believe some here might argue that Orthodox is traditional, but I doubt that anyone would say that Reconstructionist, Renewal or Humanist are traditional.
With respect to describing an entire ball game, somehow I had a feeling you would sneak the Tigers in here
. By the way, is your new avatar pic of you at the Wailing Wall ?
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