God's Fear

[Satsujin]

I just wanted to clarify something that cropped up in the Bible. If there is a God and a potential Heaven for dead humans can we be sure that God wants us there?
First, when there was a risk of Man becoming immortal, God banished him from the garden of Eden.
Second, when there was a chance that humans might ascend into Heaven and become omnipotent by building a tower, God demolished that idea by introducing language.
So, what makes the Christian(or maybe even anyone of Abrahamic faith) sure that God is happily waiting for human souls to join him in Heaven? Even the Bible seems to present a couple instances where he fears man will rise above his place and make himself a god.

BTW, this is is first post on any forum so please forgive any mistakes I might initially make.

 

[Breathe]

This would probably be better off in the Christianity in General DIR or Abrahamic DIR (as long as you're seeking to ask questions, not debate). A mod would move it there if so.

I'm not a Christian or Abrahamic though, so I can't really answer it.

Still, though, welcome aboard.

 

[Satsujin]

Sure, how would I get a mod to move it?

 

[Breathe]

Send a PM to one of the blue, red or brown name coloured guys.

Not purple, that's a theist.
Not yellow-y orange, that's someone who's a non-theist.


Or, you can click the

button and "Report" your thread, and type something like "Please move this to the Abrahamic DIR", and they will in time. Remember the

symbol, it's what you use to report if someone's being a mean bugger and not abiding by the rules.

 

[Satsujin]

Done(I think). I sent a msg to 9/10ths Penguin. Thanks for the info.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

*** Thread moved at request of the OP ***​

 

[Breathe]

Done(I think). I sent a msg to 9/10ths Penguin. Thanks for the info.

You're welcome.

I'll duck out now and leave it for the Abrahamics to answer.

 

[thedope]

I just wanted to clarify something that cropped up in the Bible. If there is a God and a potential Heaven for dead humans can we be sure that God wants us there?

Well it didn't crop up in the bible, the questions are arising in the mind and the answers are ultimately and presently found there and not in the bible. I think it important to correct the perception that the bible somehow interprets itself.

First, when there was a risk of Man becoming immortal, God banished him from the garden of Eden.

Here is a different perspective that may cause you to reevaluate the direction of your inquiries. When you make this statement, it is from the perspective of a man, not a god. You are making assumptions of both intent and potential, which have nothing to do with what may be actually occurring.

Second, when there was a chance that humans might ascend into Heaven and become omnipotent by building a tower, God demolished that idea by introducing language.

Here again are many unexamined assumptions that if they were corrected would make the line of questioning moot. For example in this instance the story suggests that the idea of the tower was abandoned because god confused their language, not introduced language.

So, what makes the Christian(or maybe even anyone of Abrahamic faith) sure that God is happily waiting for human souls to join him in Heaven? Even the Bible seems to present a couple instances where he fears man will rise above his place and make himself a god.

Consider that heaven and earth are diametrically opposed perceptions of the very same phenomena. What becomes of the question then? We can certainly observe that
men are fearful of their relative or even potential role in reality, and that fear is based upon Imagination or incorrect identification.

BTW, this is is first post on any forum so please forgive any mistakes I might initially make.

I apologize if I am not helpful. If you are building a belief system around the interpretation of the bible, I should think it be a credible one.

 

[Satsujin]

Here is a different perspective that may cause you to reevaluate the direction of your inquiries. When you make this statement, it is from the perspective of a man, not a god. You are making assumptions of both intent and potential, which have nothing to do with what may be actually occurring.

The wording in the bible seems to imply that Man gaining immortality or other God-like attributes is not something God wants.
Genesis 3:22

Consider that heaven and earth are diametrically opposed perceptions of the very same phenomena. What becomes of the question then? We can certainly observe that
men are fearful of their relative or even potential role in reality, and that fear is based upon Imagination or incorrect identification.

I thought Heaven and Hell were the diametrically opposed?

I apologize if I am not helpful. If you are building a belief system around the interpretation of the bible, I should think it be a credible one.

That's fine. I no longer accept the Bible anyway. Too many fallacies and contradictions to be considered the infallible word of a God. There is some good stuff particularly in the NT but that stuff crops up in practically every religion on Earth. I think even Laveyan Satanism has some altruistic beliefs. It's more a matter of what Men thought would be good for a society of Men than what a God thought.

 

[gzusfrk]

I just wanted to clarify something that cropped up in the Bible. If there is a God and a potential Heaven for dead humans can we be sure that God wants us there?
First, when there was a risk of Man becoming immortal, God banished him from the garden of Eden.
Second, when there was a chance that humans might ascend into Heaven and become omnipotent by building a tower, God demolished that idea by introducing language.
So, what makes the Christian(or maybe even anyone of Abrahamic faith) sure that God is happily waiting for human souls to join him in Heaven? Even the Bible seems to present a couple instances where he fears man will rise above his place and make himself a god.

BTW, this is is first post on any forum so please forgive any mistakes I might initially make.

For such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. John 4:23

 

[wordmagnifiedabovenames]

First, when there was a risk of Man becoming immortal, God banished him from the garden of Eden.

Man becoming immortal was only an issue when man would become immortal with sin; God banished them from the garden so that they would not have access to the tree of life and would not be able to live forever...in sin. Before Adam and the woman ate the fruit they shouldn't have, they had access to immortality for what I believe to be quite a while, and God didn't seem to have a problem with them living forever, in a sinless state.

Second, when there was a chance that humans might ascend into Heaven and become omnipotent by building a tower, God demolished that idea by introducing language.

I think that God destoryed the tower to show man that it was pointless for man to try to get to Heaven in his own strength; he needed God's help.

So, what makes the Christian(or maybe even anyone of Abrahamic faith) sure that God is happily waiting for human souls to join him in Heaven?

There are quite a few verses, but for starters I'd reference 1 Thes 4:17.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I'm not the most conventional Abrahamic that you'll meet, but I'll give you some of my thoughts.

I just wanted to clarify something that cropped up in the Bible. If there is a God and a potential Heaven for dead humans can we be sure that God wants us there?

Yes, of course God wants us to be with Him. To me, Heaven has always been metaphorical, and many a saint in the Christian religion has seen Heaven as a metaphor for the state of the soul in both this world and in the next, as nearness to God and His Presence.

First, when there was a risk of Man becoming immortal, God banished him from the garden of Eden.

These stories were never to be taken literally, but metaphorically, spiritually, or allegorically. Man's descent from the Garden of Eden, as presented in mystical Islam and the Baha'i Faith, represents his descent (the snake) from the spiritual world into the material world, through disobedience (the apple). Adam can be interpreted as 'humankind,' representing the Spirit and Soul of man or the spiritual side, and Eve has been seen as the human side of man.

Second, when there was a chance that humans might ascend into Heaven and become omnipotent by building a tower, God demolished that idea by introducing language.

The Tower of Babel represents ignorance and boastfulness. It was an idea of trying to understand how language came about in the most literal sense, and metaphorically representing the diversity of mankind through contention.

When we fight amongst our own brothers, sisters and neighbours, we become divided and our relationships dissipate into alienation and estrangement, no?

So, what makes the Christian(or maybe even anyone of Abrahamic faith) sure that God is happily waiting for human souls to join him in Heaven? Even the Bible seems to present a couple instances where he fears man will rise above his place and make himself a god.

BTW, this is is first post on any forum so please forgive any mistakes I might initially make.

Because, as God says in the Qur'an and in the Baha'i Writings, we are all God's, and to Him shall we return.

God bless!

 

[Gaura Priya]

That's fine. I no longer accept the Bible anyway. Too many fallacies and contradictions to be considered the infallible word of a God. There is some good stuff particularly in the NT but that stuff crops up in practically every religion on Earth. I think even Laveyan Satanism has some altruistic beliefs. It's more a matter of what Men thought would be good for a society of Men than what a God thought.

If these are your thoughts, and rather to seek some inspiration from a thousands of years old book and to see the spiritual import of it, you completely desire to remove it from being even interpreted in a utilitarian fashion, then this post and thread belongs in the Debate section, and not here in the Abrahamic section.

Too often do we have people who 'don't believe in the Bible' when really they just disbelieve in the literal interpretation of it, and can not even find a shred of inspiration.

As a person who was born and raised Christian, and then having unaccepted it for a while, I think it's silly to have an extreme opinion on any side. This also goes for the Qur'an... and yet both the Bible and the Qur'an still have been shown as a form of inspiration for many people around the planet. Instead of dismissing it as a "book of superstition and fallacies' which does not seem to be a useful attitude, it would be better to seek to interpret these parables and stories as another perception of humanity's attempt to explain another side of our own natures.

 

[Where Is God]

I actually use the story about the tower of babel as a main point of debate. If we know heaven isn't on Earth, where the hell did God think we were going to end up? Unless Christians think that we could breathe in outer space back in the day.

 

[thedope]

The wording in the bible seems to imply that Man gaining immortality or other God-like attributes is not something God wants.
Genesis 3:22

I am suggesting that the account in the bible that you are referring to represents mans view of what god has made of the situation, not the other way round. If you understand it in this context, the information is very telling of human foible if not divine glory.

I thought Heaven and Hell were the diametrically opposed?

I assumed that was the case, the request was for you to consider it from that perspective. How would it change the overall dynamics of the message?
If heaven is a state of consciousness or perception, then statements like the measure you give is the measure you receive, obviously speak to the subjective nature of perception. Not of a system of reward and punishment.

 

[Satsujin]

If these are your thoughts, and rather to seek some inspiration from a thousands of years old book and to see the spiritual import of it, you completely desire to remove it from being even interpreted in a utilitarian fashion, then this post and thread belongs in the Debate section, and not here in the Abrahamic section.

Too often do we have people who 'don't believe in the Bible' when really they just disbelieve in the literal interpretation of it, and can not even find a shred of inspiration.

As a person who was born and raised Christian, and then having unaccepted it for a while, I think it's silly to have an extreme opinion on any side. This also goes for the Qur'an... and yet both the Bible and the Qur'an still have been shown as a form of inspiration for many people around the planet. Instead of dismissing it as a "book of superstition and fallacies' which does not seem to be a useful attitude, it would be better to seek to interpret these parables and stories as another perception of humanity's attempt to explain another side of our own natures.

Actually, I did post this in the Debates section was told it would be more appropriate in this section so it was moved here by a mod.
As for my opinions, I don't have an extreme one on either side. I'd say both atheists and theists take a stance based on faith not knowledge. Though I'm pretty sure a lot of atheists would say they don't have a belief so there's nothing to take on faith. I'm agnostic but I can see the value of Deism. It's an easy way to explain first cause as well as God's seeming lack of interference in humanity's affairs.
Also, I didn't completely dismiss the book. Just dismissed as the Word of an infallible God. I realize that books like the Bible give a huge number of people comfort and peace about their life and potential afterlife when they can cherry-pick verses that match their beliefs.

I posted the OP to see what those of Abrahamic faith would use to reconcile that harsh view of a God in the Bible with one who welcomes all his beloved into Heaven. So far, I've seen people making excuses for what his real behavior as well as a point not to take the stories literally but metaphorically instead. I'd be more willing to side with the latter option.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I posted the OP to see what those of Abrahamic faith would use to reconcile that harsh view of a God in the Bible with one who welcomes all his beloved into Heaven. So far, I've seen people making excuses for what his real behavior as well as a point not to take the stories literally but metaphorically instead. I'd be more willing to side with the latter option.

As an Abrahamic strongly influenced by Baha'i principles of Scriptural exigesis, the Biblical stories are to be taken in a metaphorical light... otherwise, to try to reconcile a literal understanding of God is in itself a limitation imposed by human beings towards the Divine Being.


"In explaining these intellectual realities, one is obliged to express them by sensible figures because in exterior existence there is nothing that is not material. Therefore, to explain the reality of the spirit—its condition, its station—one is obliged to give explanations under the forms of sensible things because in the external world all that exists is sensible."

-- "Some Christian Subjects" from Some Answered Questions, by 'Abdu'l-Baha