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God loves you

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Any God that will condemn you to an eternity of torture for minor crimes, disrespect, or unbelief is not what I'd consider a loving, just or merciful God.
I do not believe God punish people forever
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I also know God loves us because we are the creations of God. All humans and animals is children of God.
So i do not need religious books to know that God loves us

I am interested in understanding this argument. Let's set aside the controversy of whether a Creator God exists or not and assume, for the sake of argument, that one does.

Why does it follow that God would love us, simply because we are God's creations?

Mary Shelley wrote against that very notion in her famous work "Frankenstein," which portrayed God as a mad scientist who despised and abused his creation.

In this reply, I am not advocating that God despises us, but I think the fact that one can despise their own creation does seem to cast doubt on the notion that God loves us because we are God's creations.

In other words, love for a creation doesn't seem to necessarily follow from being that creation's creator. Could you at least provide a good reason to believe that most creators love their creations?
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
As a survivor of childhood abuse, I beg to differ. Where was this "God of love" when my adopted mother was beating the crap out of me and psychologically abusing me, or when I was being sexually abused, or when I was being bullied in school? As a child, I frantically prayed to God over and over again, asking him to protect me from my mother and older brother, but God never did protect me. I suffered abuse (physically, psychologically, and sexually) for 13 1/2 years while growing up, and I endured bullying for the 12 years I was in school. As far as I'm concerned, God is no different than my extended family, my neighbors, my teachers in school, and the other people in town who knew I was being abused at home and bullied in school. All of these people knew what I was suffering, but none of them ever lifted a finger to rescue me from the abuse. And neither did God. I guess I wasn't worth the trouble to him, or to the people who knew I was being abused. This "loving God," and all these people, turned a blind eye and left me alone in an abusive home for 13 1/2 years. I found the courage to save myself. So, I'm not falling for the "God loves you" crap because I know better.

"God won't impede man's freewill." I've heard this excuse time and time again from devout Christians, who feebly attempt to defend God's abhorrent cruelty and apathy towards immeasurable human suffering. I think this excuse is a total cop-out. It's a shameful cop-out to defend God knowing about the inhumane atrocities that he either ordered himself or he allowed to happen and did nothing to intervene. If I witnessed another person being physically attacked, I wouldn't turn a blind eye and think, "I'm not going to try and save this person from being physically attacked (beaten up, raped, or killed) because I don't want to impede on their attacker's freewill!" If I knew of a child being abused, I wouldn't think, "I'm not going to try and save this poor child from being abused because I don't want to impede on their abuser's freewill!" What kind of person would I be if I turned my back and refused to help someone I saw being physically attacked or if I turned a blind eye to a child being abused? What kind of person would I be if I refused to do whatever I could to save another person I saw in need of help? The answer is clear: I would be heartless and cruel if I turned my back and refused to help someone I saw who was in need. So, what excuse does a loving God have for allowing all the violence and suffering in the world?
Terrible what you've been through:cry:
God is not allowing violence. God is against violence. It is humans that use violence, humans attack each other. If all humans had stopped violence now, the earth would have become a much better place. Bad people will be punished in the afterlife. Because God is both love and justice.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
God loves you. How do i know that?

I know God loves us because we are the creations of God. All humans and animals is children of God.
So i do not need religious books to know that God loves us

But God¨s love is also in religious books


1 John 4:7-8
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Psalm 136:26
26 Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever.

Psalm 86:15
you, Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.

Jeremiah 31:3, The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: “I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

Psalm 136:1-3 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good. His love is eternal. Give thanks to the God of gods. His love is eternal. Give thanks to the Lord of lords. His love is eternal.

Isaiah 54:8, In a burst of anger I turned my face away for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

God is Al-Wadud (الودود) The Loving One. It is one of the 99 names of God in the Quran

And ask forgiverness of your lord and turn unto him in repentance. verily , my lord is most merciful, most loving (Quran 11:90)

It's sort of like the relationship between Mr. Hand and Mr. Bill on Saturday Night Live. The hand comes down and ....splat, while Mr. Bill screams "Ohhhhhhh Noooooooo."

If a murderer shoots you to death, then says "I am love," would you believe him? Does saying it make it so?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I don't see evidence of any god or its love there, just words of praise.

Since you have quoted the Christian Bible so much, I'll direct my attention to that religion. I have a big problem with the Christian concept of love. I know what love is, and it's not what is attributed to this deity. Nor does it involve blood sacrifice. What is this deity doing to express its love for you?

Christians believe that life is a staging ground to see who will pass the audition and get to spend eternity praising this god. Imagine doing something like that yourself - say, having children just so they could continuously praise you. Their time in the womb is followed by an afterlife of praise in your home.

That's not love. It's not even close. Imagine telling them that they were born needing your forgiveness for being born, and that they needed to repent being human. That's not love either.

The relationship described is closer to an abusive partner than a loving god. Needing constant praise and making one feel guilty for being human is part of that, as are the severe anger and jealousy issues, allows bad things to happen to you to teach you a lesson, instills fear in you, claims credit for all of your successes and blames you for all the failures, threatens you with torture if you leave him, tells you how much you need him and are dependent on him, gives you credit for nothing, harps an how inadequate you are, and though he is often not there for you requires your unwavering devotion. It's basically, "Don't make me hurt you."

I'm reminded of a Carlin routine:
  • "Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time! But He loves you."


Setting aside the argument above for a moment, I'd say that it doesn't matter how much anything loves you if there is no manifestation of that love. Love spoken but not otherwise manifest is not love, and has no value to the object of that love.

And how does one love an entity that he has less interaction with than we here on RF have with one another? And how can that be called a personal relationship when there is no relationship at all? Do you love any of the posters here? Do you think any love you? Would you call it a personal relationship with somebody that has you on block and never answers you?

"[Christian love] doesn't involve bloody sacrifice." But Christ died for our sins???????
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since you have quoted the Christian Bible so much, I'll direct my attention to that religion. I have a big problem with the Christian concept of love. I know what love is, and it's not what is attributed to this deity. Nor does it involve blood sacrifice.

"[Christian love] doesn't involve bloody sacrifice." But Christ died for our sins???????

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. Perhaps you are agreeing using sarcasm, but perhaps you are offering the death of Christ as an example of love as a believer would

Incidentally, I didn't write that Christian love doesn't involve blood sacrifice. It does, which is why I reject that definition of love. I wrote that love doesn't involve blood sacrifice, which is among my reasons for rejecting what the Bible calls love as being that. I thought that the abusive boyfriend analogy was apt. He also calls what he offers love, but it's not.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I do not believe God punish people forever
I don't either, and there are some Christians that see things like some of above have have said, but Jesus Christ is not the source of that, in my opinion. All Christians shouldn't be painted with the same brush, either.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Any God that will condemn you to an eternity of torture for minor crimes, disrespect, or unbelief is not what I'd consider a loving, just or merciful God.


Though it could perhaps be said that one is condemning oneself to that, by causing X negatives to one’s fellow beings.


Humbly
Hermit
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
God loves you. How do i know that?

I know God loves us because we are the creations of God. All humans and animals is children of God.
So i do not need religious books to know that God loves us

But God¨s love is also in religious books


1 John 4:7-8
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Psalm 136:26
26 Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever.

Psalm 86:15
you, Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.

Jeremiah 31:3, The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: “I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

Psalm 136:1-3 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good. His love is eternal. Give thanks to the God of gods. His love is eternal. Give thanks to the Lord of lords. His love is eternal.

Isaiah 54:8, In a burst of anger I turned my face away for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

God is Al-Wadud (الودود) The Loving One. It is one of the 99 names of God in the Quran

And ask forgiverness of your lord and turn unto him in repentance. verily , my lord is most merciful, most loving (Quran 11:90)


Oh wow i didn't know Muslims believed in forgiveness, thats cool.I like both scriptures.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I am interested in understanding this argument. Let's set aside the controversy of whether a Creator God exists or not and assume, for the sake of argument, that one does.

Why does it follow that God would love us, simply because we are God's creations?

Mary Shelley wrote against that very notion in her famous work "Frankenstein," which portrayed God as a mad scientist who despised and abused his creation.

In this reply, I am not advocating that God despises us, but I think the fact that one can despise their own creation does seem to cast doubt on the notion that God loves us because we are God's creations.

In other words, love for a creation doesn't seem to necessarily follow from being that creation's creator. Could you at least provide a good reason to believe that most creators love their creations?


You won’t find love - divine or human - if you search for it with your head, imo. Love speaks the language of the heart; and it’s in the heart that you may find God’s love, which in my experience is infinite and unconditional
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
You won’t find love - divine or human - if you search for it with your head, imo. Love speaks the language of the heart; and it’s in the heart that you may find God’s love, which in my experience is infinite and unconditional

I disagree. Love produces physiological changes, such as increased heart-rate, quicker respiration, dilated pupils, and flushing. It is quite detectable through rational methods.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I disagree. Love produces physiological changes, such as increased heart-rate, quicker respiration, dilated pupils, and flushing. It is quite detectable through rational methods.
Some people who claim that God loves the have these physiological changes, but there is no rational way to prove that God loves anyone. It is a faith-based belief that is real to some believers.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Some people who claim that God loves the have these physiological changes, but there is no rational way to prove that God loves anyone. It is a faith-based belief that is real to some believers.

I am unsure about that. I was at least trying to see if OP could back up their claim; I think we should hear them out instead of completely dismissing the idea that there could be a good reason to make it.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
That sounds more like a panic attack

Maybe I have the symptoms wrong, it's possible. I've never felt love and am probably incapable of it.

The point is that love is rationally detectable and measurable, or at least certain kinds of it are.

Any assertion that requires emotional reasoning to back up is biased and fallacious, thus I think it can be soundly rejected from evidence in the context of a debate. This includes arguments from love and arguments from faith.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not believe God punish people forever
But isn't tht what the Bible says?
If punishment is not forever, how are sentences decided? What happens when your sentence is up?
Why "punishment?" What is punishment supposed to accomplish?

Punishment, it seems to me, is simply vindictiveness. It's not correction. It's not reparation. It's not modification. It;s just hurting someone who annoyed you.
Terrible what you've been through:cry:
God is not allowing violence. God is against violence. It is humans that use violence, humans attack each other. If all humans had stopped violence now, the earth would have become a much better place. Bad people will be punished in the afterlife. Because God is both love and justice.
So how do you explain the genocidal conquest of Caanan after the Israelites' 40 years in the desert -- with God as an active participant?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"[Christian love] doesn't involve bloody sacrifice." But Christ died for our sins???????
But doesn't God delight in death-sacrifices, and the "sweet savor" of burnt offerings?
Didn't God reject Cain's offering of produce and accept Abel's sacrifice of a sheep?
Didn't Noah sacrifice animals and birds to God upon leaving the Ark?
Didn't the Jews regularly sacrifice animals -- to the delight of God?
Apparently God loves killing things; in fact, demands it.

Doesn't the God of the old testament delight in human slaughter and genocide?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You won’t find love - divine or human - if you search for it with your head, imo. Love speaks the language of the heart; and it’s in the heart that you may find God’s love, which in my experience is infinite and unconditional
So truth or reality is all a matter of emotion? Truth is whatever appeals to or is familiar to you?

I guess this explains the multitude of religions and the millennia of religious war, strife and oppression.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
So truth or reality is all a matter of emotion? Truth is whatever appeals to or is familiar to you?

I guess this explains the multitude of religions and the millennia of religious war, strife and oppression.


I would say that it’s a lack of love which explains the several millennia of war and oppression.

As for reality, who can truly say what that is? There seems no way to define reality that is independent of the way we choose to look at it; these are not my words, they are the words of theoretical physicist Chris Ferrie.
 
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