• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

God-Inspired Scripture

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Hej Redemptionsong (have we already met somewhere else? Your name is not new to me.)

I think the Bible breaks at page one. We do not really need to go as far as Paul in order to question its authority.

What we can read there is not even remotely close to what we know today. So, unholy humans, with the knoweledge available few thousands years ago, seem more plausible as authors than holy spirits, who should know better.

Don't you think so?

Ciao

- viole

I'm losing track of years, not just the months and weeks! But yes, I'm sure our paths have crossed. I certainly remember your signature farewell, 'Ciao'!

But I guess we still have reasons to disagree!

Tell me, what do you understand from the passage Luke 4:16-32? Why were the eyes of the congregation 'fastened on him'?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Are you serious, Riverwolf?

Yes.

I've been fostering kids for the last 18 years and I can tell you from experience that when children are neglected they grow up with serious difficulties and mental health issues.

We all need to be loved and nurtured.

Your experience is not good enough to convince me, on its own.

It's only about 1% of the population who are born with ASPD (anti-social personality disorder), so it's no wonder to me that you may not have met any. Or perhaps you have, and they hid it from you. Or perhaps you didn't recognize it. Or perhaps confirmation bias keeps you from remembering any.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I'm losing track of years, not just the months and weeks! But yes, I'm sure our paths have crossed. I certainly remember your signature farewell, 'Ciao'!

I think it was Worthy to remember that. :)

But I guess we still have reasons to disagree!

Of course. And that is where the fun starts. I find it boring to discuss with people who agree with me.

Tell me, what do you understand from the passage Luke 4:16-32? Why were the eyes of the congregation 'fastened on him'?

You ask me about Luke, when we have not yet get passed the absurdities of Genesis?

Ciao

- viole
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
It's only about 1% of the population who are born with ASPD (anti-social personality disorder), so it's no wonder to me that you may not have met any. Or perhaps you have, and they hid it from you. Or perhaps you didn't recognize it. Or perhaps confirmation bias keeps you from remembering any.

Well, I also believe that there is such a thing as demon possession. Maybe the individuals exhibiting this disorder (ie being unaffected by love) are actually demon possessed?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Well, I also believe that there is such a thing as demon possession. Maybe the individuals exhibiting this disorder (ie being unaffected by love) are actually demon possessed?

Unlikely to the point that I don't waste my time entertaining such a notion. Ailments like rheumatism used to be blamed on Elf-arrows; speaking as someone who believes in Elves, rheumatism is NOT caused by them or their "arrows", nor are any other physical ailments.

You can believe in this "demon possession" thing if you want, but if you're going to suggest such an alternative to the current consensus with the hope that others will take it seriously, then you need to make an honest attempt to disprove it, first. Otherwise, it sounds like it's just an attempt to shape your understanding of the world in such a way that conforms to your pre-conceived notions. That is something we all do, but good reasoning it is not.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Twice is it written in the Qur'an, 'they killed him not'. This is, when added to the phrase 'nor crucified him', about as clear a rejection of the crucifixion as you can get!

I would also challenge the idea that Jesus did not die. Even though the Spirit of God returned to God (Luke 23:46) Jesus 'gave up the ghost' (died). Dying was actually a fundamental part of his earthly mission, as the gift of myrrh (Matthew 2:11) symbolized. The references to his death are so extensive that there can only be said to exist a clear contradiction between the Bible and Qur'an. I can only imagine that this contradiction exists because Muhammad did not understand the importance of Jesus' death in bringing about redemption (John 11:50-52).

You forgot the part about "..but so it was made to appear to them..." ;) What I think could be suggested here is that it appeared to them they had gotten rid of Jesus and His teachings when they had not... also recall the verse I cited earlier regarding martyrs:

Surih 2:154

"And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."

So I think there's more to the Qur'anic verses than a simple denial of the crucifixion. There's also a recently published book on the subject I'd like to recommend to you:

"The Crucifixion and the Qur'an A Study in the History of Muslim Thought" by Todd Lawson published by OneWorld.



 
Last edited:

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
ou forgot the part about "..but so it was made to appear to them..." ;) What I think could be suggested here is that it appeared to them they had gotten rid of Jesus and His teachings when they had not... also recall the verse I cited earlier regarding martyrs:

Surih 2:154

"And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."

So I think there's more to the Qur'anic verses than a simple denial of the crucifixion. There's also a recently published book on the subject I'd like to recommend to you:

"The Crucifixion and the Qur'an A Study in the History of Muslim Thought" by Todd Lawson published by OneWorld.

Arthra, I have another transliteration of the Arabic, Surah 4:155 ff, '...For their unbelief [in reference to the Jews]; and for that they have spoken against Mary a grievous calumny; and have said, - Verily we have slain the Messiah, JESUS, Son of MARY, the Apostle of God. And they slew him not, neither did they crucify him, but he was simulated (in the person of another) unto them. And verily they that have differed about him, are in doubt concerning this thing. They have no knowledge regarding it, but follow only a conjecture. And they slew him not, certainly. But God raised him up unto Himself; and God is the GLORIOUS, the WISE! And of the People of the Book shall every one believe in him before his death, and in the day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.' (Muir)

Now I don't speak Arabic, and I'm reliant on an accurate transliteration into English. But this particular transliteration does not render the same meaning as the one that you have placed on the words. It certainly gives the impression, held by many Muslims, that Jesus was not crucified, but did ascend to heaven.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Arthra, I have another transliteration of the Arabic, Surah 4:155 ff, '...For their unbelief [in reference to the Jews]; and for that they have spoken against Mary a grievous calumny; and have said, - Verily we have slain the Messiah, JESUS, Son of MARY, the Apostle of God. And they slew him not, neither did they crucify him, but he was simulated (in the person of another) unto them. And verily they that have differed about him, are in doubt concerning this thing. They have no knowledge regarding it, but follow only a conjecture. And they slew him not, certainly. But God raised him up unto Himself; and God is the GLORIOUS, the WISE! And of the People of the Book shall every one believe in him before his death, and in the day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.' (Muir)

Now I don't speak Arabic, and I'm reliant on an accurate transliteration into English. But this particular transliteration does not render the same meaning as the one that you have placed on the words. It certainly gives the impression, held by many Muslims, that Jesus was not crucified, but did ascend to heaven.


"Impressions held by many" should give you a clue that they can be incorrect as the following quote conveys "And verily they that have differed about him, are in doubt concerning this thing. They have no knowledge regarding it, but follow only a conjecture". Again I'd encourage you to explore further.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
OK, Ingledsva, lets have a look at some of Isaiah's prophecies.

But maybe you could start by giving me what you understand to be the Jewish messianic expectation. We can hardly determine whether Jesus fulfils an expectation without knowing what it is and where, in scripture, it has come from.

As I said clear back in # 46 -

"And the Isaiah verses have been misunderstood/mistranslated by others after Jesus's death. No "virgin" birth there, etc."

The verses about the JEWISH Messiah have nothing to do with Jesus. And the ones the Christians claim prove Jesus is the Messiah - such as the Isaiah "virgin" birth story - have no "virgin," and are not about any Messiah. The first Video talks about this. This Rabbi goes back and forth - quoting the Christian verses and then the Tanakh verses the Christians supposedly got the "proof" Jesus is Messiah info from. He explains why each is wrong.

We will let them speak for themselves.

Video -
- refutes many so called Jesus verses. Start around minute 15. Very interesting.

Video - http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge...-messiah/why-jesus-is-not-the-jewish-messiah/

http://jewsforjudaism.org/?s=Messiah

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

*
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Being a Baha'i I would take issue with your remark about the Qur'an being a deception. As Baha'is we do accept the Bible as inspired but in some respects inaccurate. Overall though for me you have to consider the inspiration or revelation of the Words. The Gospels appear to be based on "Logia" or sayings of Jesus that are variously clothed in the Gospels... The Qur'an as much as we can tell was revealed and soon thereafter set to writing. The Qur'an also recognizes Jesus so in a sense it is a continuation of revelation we believe from earlier Holy Scriptures:

"He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel."

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 3 - The Family Of Imran)
I agree with you.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
"Impressions held by many" should give you a clue that they can be incorrect as the following quote conveys "And verily they that have differed about him, are in doubt concerning this thing. They have no knowledge regarding it, but follow only a conjecture". Again I'd encourage you to explore further.
You are right. I agree with you.
Regards
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
"Impressions held by many" should give you a clue that they can be incorrect as the following quote conveys "And verily they that have differed about him, are in doubt concerning this thing. They have no knowledge regarding it, but follow only a conjecture". Again I'd encourage you to explore further.
Are you saying that most Muslims do not understand the words of the Qur'an? The common notion held by most Muslims that I speak to is that Jesus was not crucified, and that he ascended to heaven. Some say he was crucified, but that he never died. They hold that Jesus somehow regained consciousness and appeared three days later.
What exactly do you believe happened to Jesus?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
As I said clear back in # 46 -

"And the Isaiah verses have been misunderstood/mistranslated by others after Jesus's death. No "virgin" birth there, etc."

The verses about the JEWISH Messiah have nothing to do with Jesus. And the ones the Christians claim prove Jesus is the Messiah - such as the Isaiah "virgin" birth story - have no "virgin," and are not about any Messiah. The first Video talks about this. This Rabbi goes back and forth - quoting the Christian verses and then the Tanakh verses the Christians supposedly got the "proof" Jesus is Messiah info from. He explains why each is wrong.

I'll happily look at this video, but you haven't provided me with the passages that are considered to be legitimate prophecies to the coming Jewish Messiah.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I'm losing track of years, not just the months and weeks! But yes, I'm sure our paths have crossed. I certainly remember your signature farewell, 'Ciao'!

But I guess we still have reasons to disagree!

Tell me, what do you understand from the passage Luke 4:16-32? Why were the eyes of the congregation 'fastened on him'?

Isaiah 61:1 is talking about Isaiah, not a Messiah, or a Jesus Messiah.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isa 1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

Isa 1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

Isa 7:2 And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.

61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me (Isaiah) because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isa 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Isa 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

Isa 62:2 And the nations (foreign) shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

Isa 64:10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

Isa 64:11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.

Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

This was a split war between the North and South. The South had 10 tribes and foreign power. The trembling North had two tribes and part of a third. This is why Ahaz needed a sign from YHVH that he was with them.

EDIT - I thought I should add for clarity's sake, - that there are a couple of passages within Isaiah which some Jews consider to be about the coming Jewish Messiah. However they are within a larger story of a war, Isaiah 11 for instance, but 11:13 makes it plain we are still in the same war noted in Isaiah 1:1, and 7:1 - 2.

Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

*
 
Last edited:

arthra

Baha'i
Are you saying that most Muslims do not understand the words of the Qur'an? The common notion held by most Muslims that I speak to is that Jesus was not crucified, and that he ascended to heaven. Some say he was crucified, but that he never died. They hold that Jesus somehow regained consciousness and appeared three days later.
What exactly do you believe happened to Jesus?


We believe He was "crucified" that is His body was crucified...but not His Spirit.
He commended His Spirit to God and

in Qur'an Surih 4:158:

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

So He was martyred and in the Qur'an as I posted above..Surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
We believe He was "crucified" that is His body was crucified...but not His Spirit.
He commended His Spirit to God and

in Qur'an Surih 4:158:

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

So He was martyred and in the Qur'an as I posted above..Surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not

So far, then, we can agree. Jesus was crucified, he died, and his Spirit returned to the Father, from whence it had come (Mark 1:10).
According to the scriptures, the soul of Jesus descended into the grave. It remained there for three days and nights before being raised back to life in a body. The new body was immortal, for in this new body Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud. In heaven Jesus sat down at the right hand of his Father, there to take dominion.
Do you agree with this too?
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
So far, then, we can agree. Jesus was crucified, he died, and his Spirit returned to the Father, from whence it had come (Mark 1:10).
According to the scriptures, the soul of Jesus descended into the grave. It remained there for three days and nights before being raised back to life in a body. The new body was immortal, for in this new body Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud. In heaven Jesus sat down at the right hand of his Father, there to take dominion.
Do you agree with this too?
Ah, so Jesus has physical form in heaven....
 
Top