• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

God can't explain anything and there's no rational way to demonstrate otherwise

serp777

Well-Known Member
People often try to give God as an explanation of things like morality, the beginning of the universe, etc. But i don't see how God explains anything or could possibly be an explanation. Its equivalent to "magic" or "pixies" did it. Furthermore there's no reasonable way to show that God is an explanation for anything. Matt DIllahunty made the great point that using God as an explanation is just explaining a mystery by appealing to another, greater mystery. If I say that dark matters exists because of super stuff, or some other undefined label, then you haven't explained a thing. Using God as an explanation is just like using super stuff as an explanation. if you did try to use that as an explanation, then there's no way to prove it because you can't demonstrate a causal link between something as ambiguous as God did it to some unexplained effect.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
People often try to give God as an explanation of things like morality, the beginning of the universe, etc. But i don't see how God explains anything or could possibly be an explanation. Its equivalent to "magic" or "pixies" did it. Furthermore there's no reasonable way to show that God is an explanation for anything. Matt DIllahunty made the great point that using God as an explanation is just explaining a mystery by appealing to another, greater mystery. If I say that dark matters exists because of super stuff, or some other undefined label, then you haven't explained a thing. Using God as an explanation is just like using super stuff as an explanation. if you did try to use that as an explanation, then there's no way to prove it because you can't demonstrate a causal link between something as ambiguous as God did it to some unexplained effect.
As a pantheist, I even kind of agree with some of this. I don't see how just looking at a material universe and debating God or no God can get us anywhere.

For me, I started closer to home with the paranormal and spiritual experiences of man (as opposed to abstract arguments).
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God can't explain anything. . .
Sure he can. Considering that the nature of god is a human construction, it all depends on the characteristics one gives him.

. . . and there's no rational way to demonstrate otherwise
Sure there is. What would like explained?

Note: You might not think much of the explanation or even like it, but god doesn't much care about your petty human opinion.

.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
It's not a useful debate tactic since no one is swayed by reason either way by saying "this because of Creator" or "this because of no Creator". There's no way to prove either way as of yet.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
People often try to give God as an explanation of things like morality, the beginning of the universe, etc. But i don't see how God explains anything or could possibly be an explanation. Its equivalent to "magic" or "pixies" did it.
Since pixies and magic would be contingent entities dependent upon God, it's really not equivalent. The belief in God (in the sense of classical theism) is the belief that there is an intelligent non-contingent source from which all reality is created and sustained. I understand that you reject that belief, but it's really not the same thing as appealing to either magic or pixies. Essentially, you've set up a stawman from the very outset.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Sure he can. Considering that the nature of god is a human construction, it all depends on the characteristics one gives him.


Sure there is. What would like explained?

Note: You might not think much of the explanation or even like it, but god doesn't much care about your petty human opinion.
It.

Simply asserting he can doesn't make it so. Its on the same level as magic did it. I submit it isn't an explanation. What does God explain exactly?

Give me anything that is explained by God. Seriously just give me anything you want. ANd asserting that God sustains reality and gives us morals isn't an explanation just forewarning.
 
Last edited:

serp777

Well-Known Member
Since pixies and magic would be contingent entities dependent upon God, it's really not equivalent. The belief in God (in the sense of classical theism) is the belief that there is an intelligent non-contingent source from which all reality is created and sustained. I understand that you reject that belief, but it's really not the same thing as appealing to either magic or pixies. Essentially, you've set up a stawman from the very outset.

Since pixies and magic would be contingent entities dependent upon God, it's really not equivalent.

Not necesserily true, i'd need to see some proof of this. It begs the question of Gods existence.

The belief in God (in the sense of classical theism) is the belief that there is an intelligent non-contingent source from which all reality is created and sustained. I understand that you reject that belief, but it's really not the same thing as appealing to either magic or pixies. Essentially, you've set up a stawman from the very outset.

A belief is not an explanation. Also an assertion is not an explanation, so simply asserting that he sustains reality is the same as saying magic created and sustains reality. How did you prove that its not the same thing as appealing to magic? From an explanation standpoints its absolutely equivalent to magic. Please demonstrate my strawman.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
People often try to give God as an explanation of things like morality, the beginning of the universe, etc. But i don't see how God explains anything or could possibly be an explanation. Its equivalent to "magic" or "pixies" did it. Furthermore there's no reasonable way to show that God is an explanation for anything. Matt DIllahunty made the great point that using God as an explanation is just explaining a mystery by appealing to another, greater mystery. If I say that dark matters exists because of super stuff, or some other undefined label, then you haven't explained a thing. Using God as an explanation is just like using super stuff as an explanation. if you did try to use that as an explanation, then there's no way to prove it because you can't demonstrate a causal link between something as ambiguous as God did it to some unexplained effect.

What is the nature of the god that can't be The origin of the universe?

Like a deity shaping the world, s spirit overing over the waters?

What is god to where your point make more sense than complaining about a nonexistent being??
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I don't see how one can get away from the actuality of positing a god and the inherent problems with any information coming via any human source - asserting that this does come via or from any god. How could one, even the person through which this passes, know that anything has any truth rather than just being a well-intentioned (or not) attempt to control others or just being delusional? Surely we know enough about human psychology now to know that we are all vulnerable to various flaws in either being mistaken as to being a medium (hearing voices) or in believing what they might say. The fact that so many can believe in different religions seems to attest to the fact that people will believe as they will if it appeals to them more than something else.
 

Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
I feel like god is just an excuse for not knowing, and that it's a cop out move to explain what a person doesn't understand or never understood, or never bothered to try to comprehend in the first place..

Or god is used to justify 'low brow' behavior.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
What is the nature of the god that can't be The origin of the universe?

Like a deity shaping the world, s spirit overing over the waters?

What is god to where your point make more sense than complaining about a nonexistent being??

What is the nature of the god that can't be The origin of the universe?

This is just an assertion, not an explanation.

Like a deity shaping the world, s spirit overing over the waters?

Just another assertion. Magic shaped the world. If magic is just as sufficient as God for your example, then its probably a bad example. An explanation needs to help you understand more. It must add to understanding and be beyond just an assertion. For example, saying magic allows me to breathe doesn't make sense because explaining that contracting and expanding lungs enables oxygen to go through the alveoli gives me a much greater understanding of how its accomplished. God did it isn't an explanation. Saying God lets us breathe isn't an explanation similarly. We also can only explain things in terms of other things we understand. Explaining some in terms of something we don't understand, like God, is similarly not an explanation.

What is god to where your point make more sense than complaining about a nonexistent being??
This just makes no sense, I have no idea what you're talking about.
 

Cacotopia

Let's go full Trottle
I feel like there is going to be a god for any gap in human knowledge that may still exist.

Anything that has no definite answers that's where you will "find" god. Since that seems to be the trend surrounding the entity, things that can't be explained. Perhaps that is what god is. Stuff that we haven't found an answer for.

God is untapped knowledge, and when we make a new discovery some of god disappears. I'm just spit balling here.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
The strawman dunnit! Obviously.

The belief in God (in the sense of classical theism) is the belief that there is an intelligent non-contingent source from which all reality is created and sustained.
And it explains nothing as the OP suggested. The "pixies" stuff (and what have you) is not really relevant to his argument but it doesn't make it a strawman. The argument is that God is a non-explanation and I agree with that. As a creator and sustainer of the universe, God has become progressively more and more redundant. He is no longer required to make the mountains smoke, drive out evil spirits from demoniacs, cause the rain to fall or withhold it, create each species of living thing according to a divine plan, shake the earth, push the sun across the sky or cause stars to fall from heaven - volcanoes, epilepsy, el nino/la nina and other meteorological cycles, evolution, plate tectonics, gravity and meteor showers have pushed him out of all those areas...

...and now, even the last preserve of the divine creatorship - "something" from "nothing" - is under fairly serious threat as it turns out that "nothing" was never really "nothing" after all - and "something" might really still be "nothing" when it comes down to it - so nothing has changed at all - in reality and despite the fact that the only thing that reality ever does is change - from the time that we assumed that there never really was a "nothing" to change into "something" anyway.

Anyway, the point here is that there is really nothing left for God to be an explanation for - unless you want him to be the explanation for the "nothing" that is supposed to have existed before "something".

And even if there was, God (in the sense of classical theism) is not really an explanation anyway - more of a lack of an explanation.

So all in all - if what you want is a "lack of an explanation for nothing" - then God's yer man - so to speak.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Simply asserting he can doesn't make it so. Its on the same level as magic did it. I submit it isn't an explanation. What does God explain exactly?

Give me anything that is explained by God. Seriously just give me anything you want. ANd asserting that God sustains reality and gives us morals isn't an explanation just forewarning.
You're missing the point. If I get to construct god I can make him explain anything I like, and as I said, you might not think much of the explanation or even like it, but god doesn't much care about your petty human opinion because that's how I constructed him.
Consider: I get to decide everything about god, just as when sitting before a blank sheet of paper I get to decide everything about the picture I draw on it. Get it?

.

.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well you can't explain what you don't have in the first place except maybe what's in people's imaginations.

Of course, that naturally concludes with people themselves doing all the explaining on "behalf" of said deity.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
And it explains nothing as the OP suggested. The "pixies" stuff (and what have you) is not really relevant to his argument but it doesn't make it a strawman.
It's nothing more than a variation of God as the man in the sky cliché. It implies a misrepresentation of what God is said to be. At least as far as Judaism, Christianity and Islam are concerned.

he argument is that God is a non-explanation and I agree with that. As a creator and sustainer of the universe, God has become progressively more and more redundant. He is no longer required to make the mountains smoke, drive out evil spirits from demoniacs, cause the rain to fall or withhold it, create each species of living thing according to a divine plan, shake the earth, push the sun across the sky or cause stars to fall from heaven - volcanoes, epilepsy, el nino/la nina and other meteorological cycles, evolution, plate tectonics, gravity and meteor showers have pushed him out of all those areas...
It was not the Christian who sacrificed children to ensure the rain. Paganism at its most basic is nothing more than the attempt to bargain with natural forces. And I reject this primitive worldview as much as you do. I believe in a rational (but created) world that can be understood not in the capricious elemental spirits of the Greeks, Aztecs and Egyptians. My point, is that I don't see any conflict between Christian theism and our growing understanding of the natural world since Christianity simply doesn't posit a world controlled by spirits. It is true that in previous ages, people were prone to ascribe to the preternatural things we now know to have natural causes but that is in no way a threat to the core idea of monotheism. One, all powerful, uncreated and transcendent God who creates and sustains all things.

Of course, I do also accept the existence of the demonic but that in and of itself isn't relevant to God and what God is.

...and now, even the last preserve of the divine creatorship - "something" from "nothing" - is under fairly serious threat as it turns out that "nothing" was never really "nothing" after all - and "something" might really still be "nothing" when it comes down to it - so nothing has changed at all - in reality and despite the fact that the only thing that reality ever does is change - from the time that we assumed that there never really was a "nothing" to change into "something" anyway.
I don't think the idea of an uncreated reality stretching infinitely back is coherent.

Anyway, the point here is that there is really nothing left for God to be an explanation for - unless you want him to be the explanation for the "nothing" that is supposed to have existed before "something".
You haven't actually detracted away from God at all though. I agree, there's no Tlaloc demanding you kill your children in exchange for rain. No chariot riding deity pulling the sun across the sky, nor a Zeus to gallivant around, throw lighting bolts and impregnate attractive women. But that has never been the claim of any of the major monotheistic faiths.

And even if there was, God (in the sense of classical theism) is not really an explanation anyway - more of a lack of an explanation.
Obviously, if one wants to know why it rains then "God" is not an answer. It's true in a sense but not in a useful sense. But God is an explanation for why the world exists, why there is a good and how it relates to the final end of human beings. Whether or not you reject that explanation is up to you, but it is in my view far more coherent that an infinite regress of stuff that expanded at some point and just is by sheer brute fact of it being so.

Not necesserily true, i'd need to see some proof of this. It begs the question of Gods existence.
I'm saying your characterization of what theists believe is wrong. Whether or not theism is correct is beside the point. You clearly don't understand or rather don't want to understand.
 
Last edited:

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
They are questions not assertions. Assertions are statements of fact (def) those with questions marks are viewed as questions.

This is just an assertion, not an explanation.



Just another assertion. Magic shaped the world. If magic is just as sufficient as God for your example, then its probably a bad example.

An explanation needs to help you understand more. It must add to understanding and be beyond just an assertion. For example, saying magic allows me to breathe doesn't make sense because explaining that contracting and expanding lungs enables oxygen to go through the alveoli gives me a much greater understanding of how its accomplished.

God did it isn't an explanation. Saying God lets us breathe isn't an explanation similarly. We also can only explain things in terms of other things we understand. Explaining some in terms of something we don't understand, like God, is similarly not an explanation.


This just makes no sense, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Question: what do you mean magic shaped the world?

You gotta quote the comments you are referring to. I have no clue where you got magic and explanations of magic in relation to breathing etc from.

Questions: when you say god didn't do it, what comment are you referring to that I said he did?

Are you talking outloud (written brainstorming)?
 
Last edited:

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
People often try to give God as an explanation of things like morality, the beginning of the universe, etc. But i don't see how God explains anything or could possibly be an explanation. Its equivalent to "magic" or "pixies" did it. Furthermore there's no reasonable way to show that God is an explanation for anything. Matt DIllahunty made the great point that using God as an explanation is just explaining a mystery by appealing to another, greater mystery. If I say that dark matters exists because of super stuff, or some other undefined label, then you haven't explained a thing. Using God as an explanation is just like using super stuff as an explanation. if you did try to use that as an explanation, then there's no way to prove it because you can't demonstrate a causal link between something as ambiguous as God did it to some unexplained effect.

So let me re-ask
What is the nature of the god that can't be The origin of the universe?

If God cannot be the explanation of the universe, what is the nature of god to which you are describing?

Question not an assertion nor putting words in your mouth.

Like a deity shaping the world, s spirit overing over the waters?

By god not being an explanation, do you mean a deity (can't be an explanation) or....?

What is god to where your point make more sense than complaining about a nonexistent being??

You're telling us about a god that does not exist can't be the explanation of natural phenomena like the universe and breathing (in your other post).

God doesn't exist. So, what god are you referring to? Explain it more so I know the concept of who can't do what.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
People often try to give God as an explanation of things like morality, the beginning of the universe, etc. But i don't see how God explains anything or could possibly be an explanation. Its equivalent to "magic" or "pixies" did it. Furthermore there's no reasonable way to show that God is an explanation for anything. Matt DIllahunty made the great point that using God as an explanation is just explaining a mystery by appealing to another, greater mystery. If I say that dark matters exists because of super stuff, or some other undefined label, then you haven't explained a thing. Using God as an explanation is just like using super stuff as an explanation. if you did try to use that as an explanation, then there's no way to prove it because you can't demonstrate a causal link between something as ambiguous as God did it to some unexplained effect.
WOW! It looks like you have already made your decision.

So, what is the post about?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Sure he can. Considering that the nature of god is a human construction, it all depends on the characteristics one gives him.


Sure there is. What would like explained?

Note: You might not think much of the explanation or even like it, but god doesn't much care about your petty human opinion.

.
I think the OP meant actually explain. The hypothetical/fictional case doesn't actually explain.
 
Top