God and Logic

[stemann]

Let me start by saying i am sick of the old 'could God create a rock so heavy even he couldnt lift it' argument because theists will always have rebukes to atheists' attempted disproofs of God.

Ok, now, is God the greatest, most perfect, brilliantest, amazingest etc. being ever?

If yes, did God create everything (except himself, as we also have all already heard many times before about the 'God has always existed' arguments)?

If yes, did God create logic?

If yes, could he have created it in any other way? That is, whereby the logic axioms that we consider to be true (A=A, etc) were not true, and different ones were created in their place?

If yes, could we not discover these 'other' systems of logic?

Let me conclude by saying something that i personally believe. I think that the idea of a conscious and anthropomorphic 'God' has been constructed by human minds, whether subconsciously or otherwise, from different parts of things present in the universe, one of which is logic (others are: the apparent existence of morality, influence of parents etc.).

 

[JerryL]

Ok, now, is God the greatest, most perfect, brilliantest, amazingest etc. being ever?

No. God is an imaginary creature. That would cut the rest of this rather short (since you are hunting for a disproof rather than a simple denial); so we can discuss this hypothetical God.

If yes, did God create everything (except himself, as we also have all already heard many times before about the 'God has always existed' arguments)?

There's no flow from that at all. I see no reason that the "greatest, most perfect, brilliantest, amazingist" means "architect of all things".

Also, it depends on what you call "things". Obviously, anything which is a part of God cannot be created by him as it's a prerequsite for him (if God logical?)

If yes, did God create logic?

No. Logic is not an "exitant thing" and therefore is not "created".

If yes, could he have created it in any other way? That is, whereby the logic axioms that we consider to be true (A=A, etc) were not true, and different ones were created in their place?

It's impossible to discuss rationally an irrational concept. There's no way to answer the question.

If yes, could we not discover these 'other' systems of logic?

It it logical that there's unlogic? No.

Let me conclude by saying something that i personally believe. I think that the idea of a conscious and anthropomorphic 'God' has been constructed by human minds, whether subconsciously or otherwise, from different parts of things present in the universe, one of which is logic (others are: the apparent existence of morality, influence of parents etc.).

I don't see how any of your premises support any of your conclusions. Even granting each premise, the next step did not seem to flow logically at all.

 

[michel]

Let me start by saying i am sick of the old 'could God create a rock so heavy even he couldnt lift it' argument because theists will always have rebukes to atheists' attempted disproofs of God.

Ok, now, is God the greatest, most perfect, brilliantest, amazingest etc. being ever?

If yes, did God create everything (except himself, as we also have all already heard many times before about the 'God has always existed' arguments)?

If yes, did God create logic?

If yes, could he have created it in any other way? That is, whereby the logic axioms that we consider to be true (A=A, etc) were not true, and different ones were created in their place?

If yes, could we not discover these 'other' systems of logic?

Let me conclude by saying something that i personally believe. I think that the idea of a conscious and anthropomorphic 'God' has been constructed by human minds, whether subconsciously or otherwise, from different parts of things present in the universe, one of which is logic (others are: the apparent existence of morality, influence of parents etc.).

That's fine by me; no one says you have to believe in God. Just out of interest, it almost seems like you get very frustrated with theists because we don'tsee things your way...........

 

[Scuba Pete]

That's fine by me; no one says you have to believe in God. Just out of interest, it almost seems like you get very frustrated with theists because we don'tsee things your way...........

I got the very same impression. Imagine that!

Many of your questions seem to have no way of being answered on this plane of existence. Many assume they know, and most would be wrong in their assumptions.

 

[Halcyon]

If yes, did God create logic?
...

If yes, could he have created it in any other way? That is, whereby the logic axioms that we consider to be true (A=A, etc) were not true, and different ones were created in their place?
...

If yes, could we not discover these 'other' systems of logic?

I'm not what you'd call the usual theist, i try to think outside the box. See what you think of this.

Our universe operates on certain physical laws that, outside of black holes, underpin all workings within this universe, correct? I assume you agree with this?

Ok then, so we know that our universe works on these laws, but what about beyond our universe in hyperspace, what physical laws apply there? Cosmologists agree that the physics of this universe would not apply there, thus the logic which is based on the physical laws of this universe would not apply either.

So, yes i think other systems of logic can exist were A = B. But we won't be able to comprehend them. Why? Because our brains and minds are based on the logic and physical laws of this universe, not any other.

Let me conclude by saying something that i personally believe. I think that the idea of a conscious and anthropomorphic 'God' has been constructed by human minds, whether subconsciously or otherwise, from different parts of things present in the universe, one of which is logic (others are: the apparent existence of morality, influence of parents etc.).

I agree that the common view of God is a human construct, bearded white guy sitting on a golden throne on a cloud, sounds funny.
Personally though, i believe God is infinite in a very literal sense, infinitely good and infinitely evil. So, i accept that any form of God can and does exist, even the bearded white guy.

 

[JerryL]

Many of your questions seem to have no way of being answered on this plane of existence. Many assume they know, and most would be wrong in their assumptions.

So the answer is unknowable, but you know that the answer given by others is wrong?

Or are you just assuming that since others give different answers, that some must be wrong? That's a logical conclusion which may not be applicable sans-logic (if sans-logic is even possible).

 

[Fluffy]

That's fine by me; no one says you have to believe in God. Just out of interest, it almost seems like you get very frustrated with theists because we don'tsee things your way...........

Really? It seemed to me that he was more frustrated with non-theists who kept on trying to argue against theism by constraining god via logic whilst missing the point that god could easily have created logic and therefore constraining him in such a way is not justifiable.

 

[Nick Soapdish]

If yes, did God create logic?

Logic is a human construct. It is a tool to help us understand truths.

If yes, could he have created it in any other way? That is, whereby the logic axioms that we consider to be true (A=A, etc) were not true, and different ones were created in their place?

This makes no sense. A=A is a human sentence and an abstraction. If it were not a truism, then our system of logic is flawed, but it says nothing of the truths established by God.

 

[Fatmop]

This makes no sense. A=A is a human sentence and an abstraction. If it were not a truism, then our system of logic is flawed, but it says nothing of the truths established by God.

Then you must find it as odd as I do when you see the phrase "God-given reason."

 

[Cordoba]

Reading Material, if of interest:

God is Known Through Reason:

http://www.evidencesofcreation.com/reason01.htm

All the best.

 

[stemann]

Right, from the top:

There's no flow from that at all. I see no reason that the "greatest, most perfect, brilliantest, amazingist" means "architect of all things".
Also, it depends on what you call "things". Obviously, anything which is a part of God cannot be created by him as it's a prerequsite for him (if God logical?)

.... I meant God created all things as part of the premise, not following on from the 'perfect' sentence (although it still may follow on logically).
So if God cannot create himself, who created him?

No. Logic is not an "exitant thing" and therefore is not "created".

I don't understand this. Did you mean 'existant'? Logic does exist, maybe not in physical form, but metaphysically.

It's impossible to discuss rationally an irrational concept. There's no way to answer the question.

It it logical that there's unlogic? No.

Fair enough, but I meant can we use the unlogic instead of the logic when discussing the unlogic. I think i meant that anyway.

I don't see how any of your premises support any of your conclusions. Even granting each premise, the next step did not seem to flow logically at all.

.....My conclusion was not based on the steps beforehand, it was just what I thought. Each of the steps was not supposed to follow on logically from the next, it was just a series of questions whereby if you answered 'yes' then the next question would be valid.

But good attitude anyway JerryL, keep on arguin'.

That's fine by me; no one says you have to believe in God. Just out of interest, it almost seems like you get very frustrated with theists because we don'tsee things your way...........

Yes, i always used to get that way, now im frustrated when i cant convey my arguments properly. I understand now about how you have very little chance of convincing a theist to be an atheist using conventional logical arguments, so i am weaning myself off attempting to do that.

I got the very same impression. Imagine that!
Many of your questions seem to have no way of being answered on this plane of existence. Many assume they know, and most would be wrong in their assumptions.

'We only know that we dont know.' But do we even know that, im not sure. And many theists get that impression about me when i pick out the logical inconsistencies in their arguments.

Halcyon, yes, you make a lot of sense. I'm tryin to think of extensions to what you say though, because if there are limits to what we can think about, are we truly fully conscious?

Really? It seemed to me that he was more frustrated with non-theists who kept on trying to argue against theism by constraining god via logic whilst missing the point that god could easily have created logic and therefore constraining him in such a way is not justifiable.

No, because what i meant was that if God created logic, then how did he think of it without using logic? (Theists answer: He is omnipotent and omniscient; go figure)
Many arguments about God rely on the definitions of omnipotence and omniscience etc., i think i started a thread to that effect once but it didnt go anywhere.

Logic is a human construct. It is a tool to help us understand truths.

....... so where do the laws of physics and maths come from? Did we invent them? Clever that they all fit together like that isn't it.

This makes no sense. A=A is a human sentence and an abstraction. If it were not a truism, then our system of logic is flawed, but it says nothing of the truths established by God.</FONT>

Great, so what are the truths established by God? (Remember- you have just disparaged logic as a human invention, and so cannot use it when explaining God's Truths.)


And from that site quoted by Cordoba:

The claim of the theory of evolution, the unique method of denying the existence of Allah, is no different than this. According to the theory, inorganic molecules formed amino acids by chance, amino acids formed proteins by chance, and finally proteins formed living creatures again by chance. However, the probability of a living creature being formed by coincidence is less than the probability of the Eiffel Tower being formed in the same manner, because even the simplest human cell is more sophisticated than any man-made structure in the world.

MY GOSH, THEREFORE GOD EXISTS! HOW COULD I.... BE SO BLIND....????

How is it possible to think that the balance in the world came about by coincidence when the extraordinary harmony of nature is observable even with the naked eye? It is the most unreasonable claim to say that the universe, each point of which suggests the existence of its Creator, has come into being on its own.

No, it is the most unreasonable to say a perfect, conscious, benevolent entity came into being on its own, and created us for our sake.

Question: should we thank someone for creating us? Is that logical? For we would have no means by which not to thank them if they hadn't.

 

[JerryL]

.... I meant God created all things as part of the premise, not following on from the 'perfect' sentence (although it still may follow on logically).
So if God cannot create himself, who created him?

I simply said that the attributes which are ascribed as being "God" cannot be created by "God" as that would require that they existed before they were created.

I don't understand this. Did you mean 'existant'? Logic does exist, maybe not in physical form, but metaphysically.

I think "exists metaphysically" is an oxymoron. Addition doens't "exist", and neither does logic.

Fair enough, but I meant can we use the unlogic instead of the logic when discussing the unlogic. I think i meant that anyway.

"Use unlogic" to me sounds like an attempt to make an unlogical discussion. No, we cannot.

so where do the laws of physics and maths come from? Did we invent them? Clever that they all fit together like that isn't it.

Yes, we invented the laws. They all fit together because they all describe the same real thing (reality).

Great, so what are the truths established by God? (Remember- you have just disparaged logic as a human invention, and so cannot use it when explaining God's Truths.)

Frog trees the purple going pizza yes!

 

[Cordoba]

And from that site quoted by Cordoba:

No, it is the most unreasonable to say a perfect, conscious, benevolent entity came into being on its own, and created us for our sake.

The Creator did not come into being, He is Eternal.
(Think of infinity in algebra)

All else in this universe is temporary, with a start and an end. Only God is Eternal.

Question: should we thank someone for creating us? Is that logical? For we would have no means by which not to thank them if they hadn't.

We thank Him for all the blessings and bounties He has bestowed upon us.

 

[Cordoba]

More Logical Arguments for the Existence of God

1- Everything is contingent, for it is equally possible that they will exist or not exist. Anything can exist any time and anywhere, in any form, and with any character. Nothing or no one has a role in determining the way, time, and place of its coming into existence, or its character and features. So, there must be a power that chooses between a thing's existence and non-existence, and that gives it unique characteristics. This power must be infinite, have absolute will and all-comprehensive knowledge. Necessarily, it is God.

2- Everything changes. Therefore it is contained in time and space, meaning that it begins and ends. That which has a beginning needs a beginningless one to bring it into existence, for it cannot originate itself, as this would require an infinite regression of originators. As reason cannot accept such a situation, an originator who is infinitely self-existent, self-subsistent, and immune to change is needed. This original originator is God.

... (to be continued)

All the best.

 

[Cordoba]

3- Everything that exists, and the universe as a whole, display a magnificent harmony and order in themselves and in their interrelationships. The existence of one part necessitates the existence of the whole, and the whole requires the existence of all parts for its own existence. For example, a deformed cell may destroy an entire body. Similarly, a pomegranate requires the collaborative and cooperative existence of air, water, soil, and the sun, as well as their mutual and well-balanced cooperation, for its existence. This harmony and cooperation point to a creator of order, who knows the relationships and characteristics of everything, and who can order everything. The creator of order is God.

4- All of creation exhibits an overwhelming artistry of dazzling worth. Yet it is brought into being, as we see it, with great ease and speed. Furthermore, creation is divided into countless families, genera, species, and even smaller groups, each of which exists in great abundance. Despite this, we see nothing but order, art, and ease in creation. This shows the existence of one with an absolute power and knowledge, who is God.

All the best.

 

[ChrisP]

Let me start by saying i am sick of the old 'could God create a rock so heavy even he couldnt lift it' argument because theists will always have rebukes to atheists' attempted disproofs of God.

Ok, now, is God the greatest, most perfect, brilliantest, amazingest etc. being ever?

If yes, did God create everything (except himself, as we also have all already heard many times before about the 'God has always existed' arguments)?

If yes, did God create logic?

If yes, could he have created it in any other way? That is, whereby the logic axioms that we consider to be true (A=A, etc) were not true, and different ones were created in their place?

If yes, could we not discover these 'other' systems of logic?

Let me conclude by saying something that i personally believe. I think that the idea of a conscious and anthropomorphic 'God' has been constructed by human minds, whether subconsciously or otherwise, from different parts of things present in the universe, one of which is logic (others are: the apparent existence of morality, influence of parents etc.).

Running through Logical reasonings is one way to pass time, but ultimately fruitless, as life is not logical. Decisions are logical, but not necessarily choices.

The only system I can see proven, is the system of energy. Energy of any variety transforms into another kind moving around filling up other energy needs. This is why I seek to achieve gnosis in Tao.

Wind is a good example, wind is air rushing to fill a space where hot air has risen (put simply I know). Why does it do this? Unimportant. What is important is that it does.

It enables people to breathe, water to fall, plants to grow and the weather cycles of our planet to continue.

Asking why not is so much more beneficial than why.

PS: Why do you worship Bovines?

 

[AtheistAJ]

The Creator did not come into being, He is Eternal.
(Think of infinity in algebra)

All else in this universe is temporary, with a start and an end. Only God is Eternal.

"Infinite" by what standards? Not even our Universe is infinite as there are others, and there is a widely excepted scientific theory that ours expands and shrinks due to temperature like everything else in it. A god or whatever can't be in this Universe at the same time as others, so even if there is a god and it is infinite in this Universe, it is not infinite in infinity.

Besides, why would something infinite care for little ol' you?

Also you are wrong, matter doesn't "end", just shapeshifts.

 

[Bangbang]

Can God Kill Himself?

 

[A. Leaf]

God of Creation in the heavens = Pure Positive Intelligence in the name of Love.
The Beast on Earth = Negative Intelligence, hinders all Intelligent development to keep financial and mental control of Earth.

Intelligence, A highly Intelligent word of God, You just keep looking for an answer for the word and the word keeps growing, Love it.

 

[AtheistAJ]

God of Creation in the heavens = Pure Positive Intelligence in the name of Love.
The Beast on Earth = Negative Intelligence, hinders all Intelligent development to keep financial and mental control of Earth.

Intelligence, A highly Intelligent word of God, You just keep looking for an answer for the word and the word keeps growing, Love it.

What? (like I expected to understand what you think) Anyway I don't think "love" which comes from restrictive emotions obstructive to truth goes well with intelligence or vise-versa. I completely agree capitalism inspires hedonism and greed, and just because I'm an atheist I'm not a hedonist. Also by "negative intelligence I think you meant pre-dominant emotions of current human nature and self-LOVE.