God And Homosexuality

[Left Coast]

All we've established is that you acknowledge imprinting is powerful, and that you claim you've had/have a hunky dory relationship with your father. So I feel we're both wasting time on this subject, no offense.

There is no peer reviewed research that the Bible is the Word of God, that Jesus saves, that homosexuality can be linked to early sex experiences. There's also no peer reviewed research that people have souls, or that love exists, or that God created.

You are well-read about homosexuality--where the opinions back you up, cherry picking. I feel I do well by using the Bible for a life guide.

I'd agree the usefulness of the conversation has come to an end. You believe in the infallibility of the Bible on faith, as a matter of dogma. Evidence that contradicts that bedrock dogma in your worldview is dismissed or otherwise rationalized. As such, there's no where else for the conversation to go. Good day.

 

[columbus]

"Execute two men together, lying together as a man lies with a woman," is a call for the death penalty for straights or bi-curious people?! Nonsense.

Honestly, I agree with you.

While Lev. 20:13 doesn't literally have a problem with two guys having sex standing up(you're adding that interpretation), I'm confident that the authors were just as bigoted as more recent Christians are. Racist and genocidal, the list of standard Christian bigotry is quite long.

Many Christians are dropping scriptural morals for more rational secular morality. But it's a long process. Possibly as long as it took to convince Christian folks that non-white people are children of God. That took centuries.
Tom

 

[Mitty]

Do you have questions for me? These sound like an attempt to use shock value, rhetorically.

Is the marriage between Wren and Ayla a same-sex marriage or a heterosexual marriage? Wren and Ayla's story: When your wife is trans.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is that a polygamous or a polyandrous marriage, and how does it affect your life?

Yes, polygamous and polyandrous. Like I said, she is bisexual and it is an open marriage, and so they come and go, even though she says she loves them. It effects not just me but the entire extended family. How it does exactly is a bit too personal for a forum. I've probably already said too much. Im just saying, I love her very much despite, and we agree not to discuss it. The day is going to come, however, when her daughter is going to bring it up with me, and that is going to crumple the status quo. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What is morality?
And was it moral for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar?
And was it moral for Lot to pimp his daughters and sexually assault them after he mocked his sons-in-law (Gen 19)?
And was it moral for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, given that his god protected him from retribution when he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with a Nod girl (Gen 4)?

The Bible discusses the immorality of otherwise good people. It's pages are filled with instances of immorality. You don't read the Bible because it is G rated. We see the effects of certain choices, even choices that are morally allowed in those days, and we can see why they are not the best choices, and are forbidden later in time. It's definitely realism, and a great way to learn morality.

 

[Mitty]

The Bible discusses the immorality of otherwise good people. It's pages are filled with instances of immorality. You don't read the Bible because it is G rated. We see the effects of certain choices, even choices that are morally allowed in those days, and we can see why they are not the best choices, and are forbidden later in time. It's definitely realism, and a great way to learn morality.

And that's because biblical morality is obviously just man-made and changes as society changes, which is why the ten commandments etc did not apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors, and why most people in civilized countries now support same-sex marriage.

 

[Mitty]

Yes, polygamous and polyandrous. Like I said, she is bisexual and it is an open marriage, and so they come and go, even though she says she loves them. It effects not just me but the entire extended family. How it does exactly is a bit too personal for a forum. I've probably already said too much. Im just saying, I love her very much despite, and we agree not to discuss it. The day is going to come, however, when her daughter is going to bring it up with me, and that is going to crumple the status quo. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

That's still her right unless it adversely affects your life.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Which is why Abraham had a sexual relationship with his sister given that a biblical marriage is simply a personal agreement between two people to shack up together.

The Bible does not record Abraham having any sisters - so how could he have a sexual relationship with one?

Abraham had two brothers - Nahor and Haran - and does not mention him having any sisters.(Genesis 11:27)

I understand that you are referring to either the accounts of Genesis 12 or 20 - when Abraham claims that Sarah is his sister for she is the "daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother" (Genesis 20:12) - but that conclusion ignores other relevant facts.

Right after mentioning Abraham's immediate family members Genesis 11:28 claims that Haran - Abraham's brother - "died before his father Terah" - or in other words - Terah (Abraham's father) outlived his son Haran.

Then the very next verse claims that both Abraham and his brother Nahor married women (Sarah and Milcah) and it claims both that Milcah and "Iscah" were Haran's daughters. (Genesis 11:29)

The Talmud and other rabbinic sources claim that "Iscah" is another rendering for "Sarai" - who was later named Sarah - Abraham's wife.

By referencing the Bible, the Talmud and other rabbinic sources it is clear that Sarah was Haran's daughter - making her Abraham's niece.

And the reason that Abraham referred to her as his sister is because Terah - his father - would have adopted her and took care of her upon the death of his son Haran.

Haran most likely did not share the same mother as Abraham and Nahor - so that is why Abraham's mother did not adopt Sarah as Terah had.

This adoption would also explain why Terah married Haran's daughters to his own sons. He was fulfilling his role as the father figure by ensuring they had husbands who could take care of them.

Sarah was never referred to as Terah's daughter - but she was referred to as his "daughter in law" (Genesis 11:31)

The Biblical record mentioned all three of Terah's sons and also the two daughters and one son of Haran - so why would it not mention that Sarai/Sarah was Terah's daughter?

Because she wasn't.

She was Abraham's "sister" by adoption - not blood.

Why do you believe that "biblical marriage" is simply consensual "shacking up"?

What is your basis for that belief?

Wrong. Romans 1 says nothing at all about female homosexuals since they do not have anal sex, given that Romans 1:26-27 obviously describes anal sex of woman and men which Paul described as "vile" and "unseemly"

Romans 1 does not mention anal sex at all. That would be you applying your own interpretation to the text.

None of that changes the fact that the bible describes Earth as a flat immoveable disc, and describes the universe as a geo-centric dome-shaped tent attached at the circle of the horizon (Matt 4:8 Isaiah 40:22 Eccl 1:5). Nor does it change the fact that the bible does not describe Earth as a rotating globe orbiting the sun. Nor does the bible say that the universe is not geo-centric and is billions of years old.

Ok - so you pick and choose which parts of Isaiah should be interpreted literally and which figuratively or symbolically - depending on how it affects your argument?

You don't detect any logical fallacy there?

Do you also claim that "the Bible" teaches that people are grasshoppers?

If not - why not? It is said in the very same verse you are referencing about a "disc" and "dome".

Also - why do you believe the Bible should need to describe the Earth orbiting the sun or mention its age in order for it to be a true and accurate record?

Do you believe that all records need to describe the Earth orbiting the sun or the age of the Earth in order to be considered true and accurate?

If any record does not mention these things - it is not true and accurate?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And that's because biblical morality is obviously just man-made and changes as society changes, which is why the ten commandments etc did not apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors, and why most people in civilized countries now support same-sex marriage.

I don't think so. I think that God has a plan, and he reveals his will to us. Unlike Protestants, I don't think that God's revelation stopped with the closing of a canon. Halakhah has never been static. Never. Even in our Torah, only ten of the laws were "etched in stone." Judaism is a living breathing faith.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's still her right unless it adversely affects your life.

Legally yes. But she is creating a mess in her life, her family's life, and in the life of her child. Thus, morally it is not the best thing.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Bible does not record Abraham having any sisters - so how could he have a sexual relationship with one?

We find out in Genesis 20:12 that Sarah is Abraham's half sister.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

And will you be tolerant of them if they express same-sex desire and not a sexual desire for the opposite sex?

I will always love them no matter what they decide to do.

I will - however - always teach them what I believe to be the truth -

- They are not defined by their sexual attractions .

- Our appetites and desires are subject to change.

- God only recognizes marriage between a man and woman.

- God wants them to only have sexual relations with the woman to whom they are legally and lawfully wedded.

If they claim to have a sexual attraction to members of the opposite sex - I will remind them that God only wants them to have sexual relations with the woman they will one day marry - so they should refrain from any sexual activity until they are married.

If they struggle with this I will encourage them to read the scriptures and pray daily and rely on the strength and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ to overcome the temptation.

If they claim to have a sexual attraction to members of the same sex - I will remind them that God only wants them to have sexual relations with the woman they will one day marry - so they should refrain from any sexual activity until they are married.

If they struggle with this I will encourage them to read the scriptures and pray daily and rely on the strength and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ to overcome the temptation.

If they decide to act on their sexual desires and engage in sexual intercourse with a woman before they are married - I will express my severe disappointment in them and encourage them to change that behavior, read the scriptures daily and seek forgiveness from the Lord through prayer.

I would also encourage them to meet with our local bishop who can best help them repent of this sin.

If they decide to act on their sexual desires and engage in sexual intercourse with a member of the same-sex - I will express my severe disappointment in them and encourage them to change that behavior, read the scriptures daily and seek forgiveness from the Lord through prayer.

I would also encourage them to meet with our local bishop who can best help them repent of this sin.

Meeting with the bishop is not an absolute necessity in either of these scenarios - but I believe it would be best since this is one of the bishop's main roles - helping people repent of sin - and he would be the man they would be interviewed by if they would receive any calling in the Church and if they would want to be married in the Church.

All appetites and desires should only be expressed within the bounds the Lord has set.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

We find out in Genesis 20:12 that Sarah is Abraham's half sister.

You should read my post in its entirety before commenting on it.

 

[Mitty]

[

I don't think so. I think that God has a plan, and he reveals his will to us. Unlike Protestants, I don't think that God's revelation stopped with the closing of a canon. Halakhah has never been static. Never. Even in our Torah, only ten of the laws were "etched in stone." Judaism is a living breathing faith.

Doesn't change the fact that biblical morality, including the ten commandments etc, is obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors. Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar, or to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a young man for hitting him (Gen 4).

 

[Mitty]

We find out in Genesis 20:12 that Sarah is Abraham's half sister.

In other words Abraham had an incestuous sexual relationship with his sister since biblical morality, including the ten commandments, is obviously just man-made. Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters after he tried to pimp them and mocked his sons-in-law (Gen 19).

 

[Mitty]

I will always love them no matter what they decide to do.

I will - however - always teach them what I believe to be the truth -

- They are not defined by their sexual attractions .

- Our appetites and desires are subject to change.

- God only recognizes marriage between a man and woman.

- God wants them to only have sexual relations with the woman to whom they are legally and lawfully wedded.

If they claim to have a sexual attraction to members of the opposite sex - I will remind them that God only wants them to have sexual relations with the woman they will one day marry - so they should refrain from any sexual activity until they are married.

If they struggle with this I will encourage them to read the scriptures and pray daily and rely on the strength and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ to overcome the temptation.

If they claim to have a sexual attraction to members of the same sex - I will remind them that God only wants them to have sexual relations with the woman they will one day marry - so they should refrain from any sexual activity until they are married.

If they struggle with this I will encourage them to read the scriptures and pray daily and rely on the strength and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ to overcome the temptation.

If they decide to act on their sexual desires and engage in sexual intercourse with a woman before they are married - I will express my severe disappointment in them and encourage them to change that behavior, read the scriptures daily and seek forgiveness from the Lord through prayer.

I would also encourage them to meet with our local bishop who can best help them repent of this sin.

If they decide to act on their sexual desires and engage in sexual intercourse with a member of the same-sex - I will express my severe disappointment in them and encourage them to change that behavior, read the scriptures daily and seek forgiveness from the Lord through prayer.

I would also encourage them to meet with our local bishop who can best help them repent of this sin.

Meeting with the bishop is not an absolute necessity in either of these scenarios - but I believe it would be best since this is one of the bishop's main roles - helping people repent of sin - and he would be the man they would be interviewed by if they would receive any calling in the Church and if they would want to be married in the Church.

All appetites and desires should only be expressed within the bounds the Lord has set.

And will you be tolerant of them and accept their decision if they don't want to talk with your local bishop, and given that the bible says absolutely nothing about female homosexuality anyway, and that a biblical marriage is simply a personal agreement between two people to shack up together and doesn't require a legally signed marriage contract or witnesses or a wedding celebrant?

 

[rational experiences]

Being married to God or with God is a human science teaching that said the face of Earth is fused/God the face of in which we see.

Due to the conditions of the Nature of fusion or SION is how we first lived and owned the marriage of life between brother and sister...for that was always the origin of life, 2 spirits human but not the same human. Why it was stated to be correct.

The first sexual experience was between humans actually.

Later, the baby life of human family brother and sister was when it was forbidden to have sex within the family unit.

Therefore if all life is seen on the face of GOD the O holy planet SION...and then you change that face with UFO radiation what title did science of genetic change idealise that review....as an evil chosen human status to their own being?

Oh that is right liar human occult organization, you chose to change STONE SION fusion, the face of God the Earth and it perverted its Nature....so we SEE the changes to the Nature altered...witness its sacrifice and then you want to impose some moral life standards that the natural Nature no longer abides?

Being what the teachings were stated and taught as.

Historically after 2 Jesus attacks, the second being the Return shroud of Turin, the community of Healers/spiritual self went to Holy war to tear down the Temple science in Jeru salem...where the circuit in the pyramids "turned". For it was a communication radiation/radio wave condition.

Ask why the word salem was then used to state "witch craft", when science owns in its MATHS STATUS and spatial themes womb and claim Maths is the womb of the spatial Heavenly body/spirit changes.

Said it was a veil/wavelengths, said it burnt the veil and it fell to the ground as evil and burnt us all in radiation "crown of thorns" prickling event...seeing I endured that brain attack my own self....as a female and as a spiritual Healer. So I was taught you evil male human science occult lesson.....thanks for the lesson liars.

The stone marriage of God, upon what we stand then changed.

After Rome forbade the science Temple technology and built the Healing Church venue for the people, the science Satanic group had become homosexual...and it is still prove and lived today, Satanic believe that a n a l sex was a powerful inter meditary with powers of God.

Therefore those males historically re built the Temple science that had been forbidden as a practice...and reattacked life.

The bible is an updated historic document written lawfully after the fact of all causes, so the Church in the bible is stated to have been built. That venue and order forbade any homosexual Satanist science self entry into their Healing venue....how it was stated, as human history, lived and experienced.

And that history has nothing at all to do today with little children who no longer identify with the correct human parent, feed back advice. Which is proven in children studied referring reincarnation and total memory recall of adults in their past life. Seeing sperm and an ovary is where all life begins today.

So it is not actually self reincarnation, it is recorded atmospheric memory.

If you begin to see alight gas images of the human Mother and Father, then it is proven that as genetic life is being destroyed, so is the memory of the lives of the 2 humans who own all lived life as a human.

A human Mother and a human Father are not identified in DNA genetic about God as being any condition other than a Holy being....and it is the human baby life who gets changed by radiation fall out and sacrificed.

And if you want to call another human an abomination against their Nature, when their nature is first human, it only proves that you have no self ability to be of wisdom to be aware of, the spirituality of life and to love everyone, when no one asked any lying occult science community to change and irradiate our life.

 

[Mitty]

The Bible does not record Abraham having any sisters - so how could he have a sexual relationship with one?

Abraham had two brothers - Nahor and Haran - and does not mention him having any sisters.(Genesis 11:27)

I understand that you are referring to either the accounts of Genesis 12 or 20 - when Abraham claims that Sarah is his sister for she is the "daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother" (Genesis 20:12) - but that conclusion ignores other relevant facts.

Right after mentioning Abraham's immediate family members Genesis 11:28 claims that Haran - Abraham's brother - "died before his father Terah" - or in other words - Terah (Abraham's father) outlived his son Haran.

Then the very next verse claims that both Abraham and his brother Nahor married women (Sarah and Milcah) and it claims both that Milcah and "Iscah" were Haran's daughters. (Genesis 11:29)

The Talmud and other rabbinic sources claim that "Iscah" is another rendering for "Sarai" - who was later named Sarah - Abraham's wife.

By referencing the Bible, the Talmud and other rabbinic sources it is clear that Sarah was Haran's daughter - making her Abraham's niece.

And the reason that Abraham referred to her as his sister is because Terah - his father - would have adopted her and took care of her upon the death of his son Haran.

Haran most likely did not share the same mother as Abraham and Nahor - so that is why Abraham's mother did not adopt Sarah as Terah had.

This adoption would also explain why Terah married Haran's daughters to his own sons. He was fulfilling his role as the father figure by ensuring they had husbands who could take care of them.

Sarah was never referred to as Terah's daughter - but she was referred to as his "daughter in law" (Genesis 11:31)

The Biblical record mentioned all three of Terah's sons and also the two daughters and one son of Haran - so why would it not mention that Sarai/Sarah was Terah's daughter?

Because she wasn't.

She was Abraham's "sister" by adoption - not blood.

Do you have any actual evidence such as DNA tests to support your claim, or is that just wishful thinking? Either way it still doesn't change the fact that it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister or his son or his goats since the ten commandments etc did not apply to him. Nor was it morally wrong to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, or for Lot to sexually assault his daughters.

Why do you believe that "biblical marriage" is simply consensual "shacking up"?

What is your basis for that belief?

So where does the bible say that a marriage requires a legally signed marriage contract and witnesses and a wedding celebrant?

Romans 1 does not mention anal sex at all. That would be you applying your own interpretation to the text.

So what were men working with men which Paul described as "vile" and "unseemly" if it wasn't anal sex as obviously described in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13? And what were they "receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet" if it wasn't from anal sex? And why doesn't the bible say anything about female homosexuality if you believe that anal sex is the "natural use of the woman" (Romans 1:26-27)?
And why didn't Jesus say anything about homosexuality and why he loved a particular disciple instead of a wife?

Ok - so you pick and choose which parts of Isaiah should be interpreted literally and which figuratively or symbolically - depending on how it affects your argument?

You don't detect any logical fallacy there?

Do you also claim that "the Bible" teaches that people are grasshoppers?

If not - why not? It is said in the very same verse you are referencing about a "disc" and "dome".

Also - why do you believe the Bible should need to describe the Earth orbiting the sun or mention its age in order for it to be a true and accurate record?

Do you believe that all records need to describe the Earth orbiting the sun or the age of the Earth in order to be considered true and accurate?

If any record does not mention these things - it is not true and accurate?

That's because the biblical writers obviously believed that Earth was a flat immovable disc, and that the universe was a dome-shaped tent attached to the circle of the horizon as described in Isaiah 40:22 and Matt 4:8. The reference to grasshoppers just describes how people appear the further they are away from the observer..

If you believe otherwise, where does the bible describe Earth as an insignificant rotating ball orbiting the Sun. And where does the bible say that the universe is billions of years old with about two trillion visible galaxies?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

[

Doesn't change the fact that biblical morality, including the ten commandments etc, is obviously just man-made since they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors. Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar, or to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a young man for hitting him (Gen 4).

You don't get it. Just as mankind physically evolves, our moral sentience evolves too. God understands this. He gives us what we can handle when we can handle it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In other words Abraham had an incestuous sexual relationship with his sister since biblical morality, including the ten commandments, is obviously just man-made. Which is why it wasn't morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters after he tried to pimp them and mocked his sons-in-law (Gen 19).

Lot was taken advantage of.