God And Homosexuality

[Piculet]

What about for married homosexual couples, who've made vows to one another and God?

What kind of a vow do they make to God and for what benefit? It is immoral to vow to commit a sin. Vowing so to God is absurd.

 

[Piculet]

It does?

Yeah. I said it, with a question mark.

 

[Left Coast]

Yeah. I said it, with a question mark.

I suspect any recent uptick in the numbers is a result of people coming out of the closet, not a higher percentage of people being LGBTQ than in the past.

 

[Piculet]

I suspect any recent uptick in the numbers is a result of people coming out of the closet, not a higher percentage of people being LGBTQ than in the past.

What if it isn't so? Could promoting homosexuality actually increase the amount of homosexuals and could this not, in the long run, cause a lot of harm all over the world?

 

[sojourner]

What kind of a vow do they make to God and for what benefit? It is immoral to vow to commit a sin. Vowing so to God is absurd.

Many Christian authorities -- including many Apostolic Christian authorities -- don't consider homosexuality sinful. Your point is moot. Loving someone is not seen as "sin." Assuming that, just because you do, everyone must also, is absurd. You're not an authority on the Christian Faith.

They make the same vows heterosexual couples make, and for the same benefits.

 

[columbus]

Homosexuality seems to be on the rise though?

Does it?
For most of human history my partner would have just stayed in his marriage. Fought with his wife, beat her if he wanted.
I'd have probably joined the Catholic priesthood(I have two paternal uncles who are big shot priests. It's a family tradition.)

No, I think that losing societal pressure to conform is definitely a good thing for everyone. And will result in an uptick in openly gay folk.
Tom

 

[Left Coast]

What if it isn't so?

What if pigs fly? What if we're all in the Matrix right now?

What ifs are not very helpful, other than as interesting mental exercises.

Could promoting homosexuality actually increase the amount of homosexuals

Doubtful. How many homosexuals have you spoken to about their sexual orientation?

and could this not, in the long run, cause a lot of harm all over the world?

No, as homosexuality isn't harmful.

 

[columbus]

What kind of a vow do they make to God and for what benefit? It is immoral to vow to commit a sin. Vowing so to God is absurd.

It's your God that's absurd.
At least to me. And sin, defined as "breaks rules created by primitive ancient folks", is not just absurd. It's quite immoral IMHO.
Tom

 

[Piculet]

Many Christian authorities -- including many Apostolic Christian authorities -- don't consider homosexuality sinful. Your point is moot. Loving someone is not seen as "sin." Assuming that, just because you do, everyone must also, is absurd. You're not an authority on the Christian Faith.

They make the same vows heterosexual couples make, and for the same benefits.

Which Christian authorities?

It actually doesn't matter how many human beings wish to change God's law. It cannot be changed. Even if every single human being was to disobey God's commands, it doesn't change the actual commands.

I presume we're not talking about 'loving someone' — at the end of the day, the topic is about sex, not about all the friendship that might exist between the two people who would eventually have sex. Even if the friendship was permissable in itself, if what it inevitably leads to (sex) is sin, then what leads to it (the friendship) should be avoided.

What benefit? Isn't the very main benefit of marriage to have children?

 

[columbus]

could this not, in the long run, cause a lot of harm all over the world?

In what way can competent adult homosexuality cause harm?
I'm not talking about the dysfunctional sexual relations common amongst queers who were psychologically damaged by a homophobic upbringing and society. That does cause harm, like dysfunctional sex generally does.

But at least it doesn't result in feticide and innocent children being trapped in ugly parental situations by irresponsible straight people having sex. To me, those are the worst outcomes of irresponsible sex.
Tom

 

[columbus]

It actually doesn't matter how many human beings wish to change God's law.

You choosing Iron Age ethics as your code doesn't mean it's God's law at all.
Tom

 

[Piculet]

In what way can competent adult homosexuality cause harm?

Maybe it could distroy the morality of societies.. It could cause problems with population growth and gender roles. Men are masculine for a reason and women are feminine for a reason. The type of morality that often surrounds these topics places no value for such important roles. What if the end result was a society with few actual men and few actual women?

 

[sojourner]

Which Christian authorities?

Many bishops, especially of the Anglican Communion and the ELCA, as well as authorities of several Protestant denominations. Including me.

It actually doesn't matter how many human beings wish to change God's law.

"God's law" isn't being challenged. "God's law" says not one single thing with regard to homosexuality. It does mention some acts in a very ambiguous way, but those acts are not exclusively or definitively homosexual acts. In fact, those sex acts were most likely acts of violence -- rape, pederasty, etc.

at the end of the day, the topic is about sex, not about all the friendship that might exist between the two people who would eventually have sex.

And so long as the sex happens as an expression of an equitable, committed, loving, and consensual relationship, there is no sin involved.

if what it inevitably leads to (sex) is sin,

Sex isn't sin. (See above).

What benefit? Isn't the very main benefit of marriage to have children?

Marriage is "intended by God for their mutual joy; for the help and comfort given one another in prosperity and adversity; and when it is God's will, for the procreation of children and their nurture in the knowledge and love of the Lord." (The Book of Common Prayer, 1979, The Episcopal Church USA)

 

[sojourner]

Maybe it could distroy the morality of societies

No more so than divorce, or than people "hooking up," or living together without the benefit or commitment of marriage... in fact, homosexual marriage mitigates the immorality issue.

It could cause problems with population growth and gender roles

Overpopulation is the problem. Gender roles are fluid.

Men are masculine for a reason and women are feminine for a reason.

What reason? To make you more comfortable? Human sexuality has been discovered to be far more fluid and multifaceted than you seem to realize. Native American cultures have historically recognized three, four -- even five different sexual identities.

What if the end result was a society with few actual men and few actual women?

My tongue-in-cheek answer is that Paul said, "There is no more male or female -- all are one."
In this society, great violence has been done to many by forcing people into preconceived sexual roles. The result is a theocracy based upon one group's "morals." The result is iron age thinking that entraps and victimizes many.

 

[columbus]

Maybe it could distroy the morality of societies.. It could cause problems with population growth and gender roles. Men are masculine for a reason and women are feminine for a reason. The type of morality that often surrounds these topics places no value for such important roles. What if the end result was a society with few actual men and few actual women?

We obviously have very different versions of morality.
I see no reason to keep making babies, especially amongst people ill prepared for top shelf parenthood.

And frankly, I don't think a world dominated by self centered, violent, men and their oppressed, subservient, and dependent women is anything like moral. Quite the contrary. And I think the primitive morality and ethics commonly taught by Abrahamic religionists are dreadful. We've progressed far beyond that, just as we have in science, medicine, and information technology.
Tom

 

[Piculet]

Many bishops, especially of the Anglican Communion and the ELCA, as well as authorities of several Protestant denominations. Including me.

I expected to hear names, but it isn't that important.

"God's law" isn't being challenged. "God's law" says not one single thing with regard to homosexuality. It does mention some acts in a very ambiguous way, but those acts are not exclusively or definitively homosexual acts. In fact, those sex acts were most likely acts of violence -- rape, pederasty, etc.

I see you don't accept much of the Bible. I don't either. Instead:

Sunan Abi Dawood Book of Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hu
---
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

The Prophet ﷺ said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Abu Dawud said: A similar tradition has also been transmitted by Sulaiman b. Bilal from 'Amr b. Abi 'Umar. And 'Abbad b. Mansur transmitted it from 'Ikrimah on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas who transmitted it from the Prophet ﷺ. It has also been transmitted by Ibn Juraij from Ibrahim from Dawud b. Al-Husain from 'Ikrimah on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas who transmitted it from the Prophet ﷺ.
---
Classification: Hasan Sahih (Authentic)
Sunan Abi Dawood, 4462

Sunan Ibn Majah Book of Purification and its Sunnah Hadith 6
---
It was narrated from 'Abdur-Rahman bin Abu Sa'eed Al-Khudri from his father that:
The Messenger of Allah said: "No woman should look at the nakedness of another woman, and no man should look at the nakedness of another man."
---
‏
Classification: Sahih (Authentic)
Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Purification and its Sunnah, Hadith 661

And so long as the sex happens as an expression of an equitable, committed, loving, and consensual relationship, there is no sin involved.

You left out marriage.

Sex isn't sin

Within marriage and under certain conditions it isn't. I was referring to sex between two people of the same sex — obviously.

"intended by God for their mutual joy; for the help and comfort given one another in prosperity and adversity; and when it is God's will, for the procreation of children and their nurture in the knowledge and love of the Lord."

I find that to be an insufficient description of the purpose of marriage. Where is the society in all that? Where is God in all that? It is safe to say that a man will not be impregnated by a man nor a woman by a woman. I hope you're not suggesting 'when it is God's will' refers to gay people having children together when God wills for gay sex to produce children.

Saying 'I will live a long life, if God wills' and then jumping off a bridge, has a certain contradiction to it, doesn't it?

 

[Piculet]

No more so than divorce

Divorce is an issue as well so this would border on whataboutism. Also, do we need more problems if hereosexuals can't keep things together and even you recognise that? How do you know 'no more so'? It must be a guess, but what makes your guess worth relying on?

Overpopulation is the problem.

It isn't black and white and things change.

Gender roles are fluid.

The question I'm implying is the harm that could come from that attitude exactly. Merely stating that, 'this is okay', without reviewing the consequences, is insufficient.

What reason?

God knows best. One was created this way and the other that way. Nothing has been created by accident.

even five different sexual identities.

I am not interested in sexual identities, but actions. If one feels inclined to have sexual relations with someone of the same sex, they should stay away from that, whether it is difficult or not. Just as a pedophile, who feels attracted to children, should stay away from that sin whether it is difficult or not.

 

[columbus]

"It was narrated from 'Abdur-Rahman bin Abu Sa'eed Al-Khudri from his father that:
The Messenger of Allah said: "No woman should look at the nakedness of another woman, and no man should look at the nakedness of another man." "

Why would anyone take his primitive notions any more seriously than any other? Including yours?

Almost all the ordinary people I know have changed clothes or showered with other people of the same gender. Why would anyone care about that?
Tom

 

[columbus]

And so long as the sex happens as an expression of an equitable, committed, loving, and consensual relationship, there is no sin involved.

You left out marriage.

No, sojourner didn't leave out marriage. He defined it.

Back in the primitive old days, marriage was different. It was a guy acquiring an all purpose domestic appliance/sex slave. Otherwise the recognition of a sanctioned breeding pair.
Modern marriage is far more moral.
Tom

 

[sojourner]

I expected to hear names, but it isn't that important.

Why do you need me to tell you names? No matter.
The Very Reverend Justin Welby is the Archbishop of Canterbury.
The Very Reverend Michael Curry is the Presiding Bishop of the ECUSA.
The Reverend Elizabeth Eaton is the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA.
The Reverend Terri Hord Owens is the President of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ).
The Reverend John Dorhauer is the President of the Unite Church of Christ.
The Stated Clerk of the PCUSA is J. Herbert Nelson.
There are many others.

I see you don't accept much of the Bible.

Oh? Really? How do you figure?

You left out marriage.

That is a definition of marriage.

Within marriage and under certain conditions it isn't. I was referring to sex between two people of the same sex — obviously.

People of the same sex can legally get married in this country.

I find that to be an insufficient description of the purpose of marriage.

Sucks for you...

Where is God in all that?

"Intended by GOD for their mutual joy. You must have missed that part.

Where is the society in all that?

Marriage isn't a societal thing; it's between two people.

I hope you're not suggesting 'when it is God's will' refers to gay people having children together when God wills for gay sex to produce children.

God's will refers to just that. When two homosexual people are called to marriage, obviously it's not God's will for them to procreate.

Saying 'I will live a long life, if God wills' and then jumping off a bridge, has a certain contradiction to it, doesn't it?

yeah, but that's not what happens in marriage. Marriage is a confirmation that God has called two people together into this holy estate.