Earthling
David Henson
My take on it is that they mean to imply that the writers of the Bible are ignorant and primitive.
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Goat herders, Scripture, and why Scripture (and the Koran) are toxic, irrational, and dangerous!
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
My take on it is that they mean to imply that the writers of the Bible are ignorant and primitive.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"I tried to read the Koran, thinking it had something better to offer, read it all the way through twice....and hands down, it was easily the most incoherent book I've ever read from front to back! Not to mention, it was toxic, filled me with darkness; it was depressing, disturbing (contained verses about non-muslims being crucified and having their hands and feet chopped off), antisemetic, bigoted, and bad for my health and emotions."View attachment 22850 View attachment 22851 View attachment 22852 View attachment 22853 View attachment 22854 View attachment 22855 View attachment 22856
I can't tell you how many times I hear people diss the Bible as a book written by "Goat Herders". I know King David and various other figures were at times in their lives, shepherds (or goat herders). But I seriously wonder what percent of Scripture authors were "Goat Herders" ?
Also, people say "Goat Herders" like it's a bad thing.I live in the inner city, so will never see a goat, but can imagine that a goat can teach a person more about God than the Bible.
Hopefully the goat-herder doesn't abuse his goats.... and I'm assuming milking goats, drinking their milk, caring for baby goats, feeding goats, watching them grow, protecting them from predators, etc. has all the potential to teach a person more about God than school, a Doctorate, or books.
Today, a lady shook my hand, let me borrow her AA book, and gave me a smile that spoke more to me about God than the Bible. On my way home, I saw some flowers. Those flowers spoke to me more about God than the Bible. The sunset and the clouds, the green grass, the trees, it all spoke to me more about God than the Bible. I ate some black berries recently. They spoke about God. It was clear that those berries were designed to delight taste-buds.
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha and countless others are always getting on my case (or other people's) and saying things that indicate that the Bible is the main place to learn about God. The Bible doesn't say that about itself!
I've given up on the Bible and it has nothing to do with goat-herders, goat whippers, goat-eaters, goat fondlers, or goat-milkers.
It's because I read something like Noah's Ark and wonder, how does someone get a boat big enough for all those animals, feed them all, and keep the dangerous ones etc?
Then Jonah lives three days in the belly of some sea creature? What?
Then there is ridiculous stuff like this:
2 Kings 2
23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
Okay, do I want an ancient text that says something so stupid, to be my rule of life, my rule of faith, my rule of Theology? Really? Do I want to use a book that contains a bunch of far-fetched idiotic rubbish as fuel to correct, judge, and beat people (as so many Christians are fond of doing)?
First off, those are 42 children killed by two bears. Don't the children all start running away in different directions...how does the bear catch them all? And were all 42 of those kids actually making fun of a guys "bald head"? I highly doubt it. And even if there were a crowd of 42 kids simultaneously making fun of some guys bald head, does it deserve capital punishment, by being mauled to death by wild beasts? Really?
Then, a guy steadies the Ark, and God kills him for it. People get executed for working on the Sabbath. How psychotic is that? Kill people for working on the wrong day of the week. That is as sick to me as when ISIS executed children for watching soccer because it "Violated Sharia".
So, why should I follow a book that completely goes against my conscience? Why should I use a text full of toxic information, genocide, bigotry, hate, intolerance, and says other stupid things like "call no man your Father...if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out"...and use that as my sole rule of Theology, rule of life, sole rule of how I learn about God, and whip such a book out to correct and admonish others, or attack what polytheists or Buddhists hold as sacred?
Absolutely Not!
Not gonna happen! I'll pray that God makes me obediently do his will, but I'll not go against my conscience because some ancient irrational text full of contradictions says to.
I tried to read the Koran, thinking it had something better to offer, read it all the way through twice....and hands down, it was easily the most incoherent book I've ever read from front to back! Not to mention, it was toxic, filled me with darkness; it was depressing, disturbing (contained verses about non-muslims being crucified and having their hands and feet chopped off), antisemetic, bigoted, and bad for my health and emotions.
So, by all means, worship God, have a personal relationship with him, pray for him to guide your thoughts and actions....but the Bible and Koran isn't the only way to learn about God, and no where do those books claim they are, and in my experience they are one of the worst sources to learn about God.
Were I God, I would be ashamed that such an irrational, embarrassing piece of literature, was the sole rule and basis of how so many people sought and learned about me!
Follow thy heart! Follow thy conscience! Ask God to guide you!
Thoughts?
I am happy to learn that one has studied Quran from cover to cover. Did one make some notes while reading Quran, please?
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I understand it, please.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The Bible and Koran tell people to abandone common sense, throw out their ability to reason, and do what goes against their conscience.
I've read the Bible enough to know that!
A person can live a better life by doing unto others as they would have done to them, using their ability to reason, being humble, charitable, forgiving, self-disciplined, and not judging, than they could ever learn from the Bible or Koran.
The Bible has some great verses and promotes some noble, worthwhile virtues, and I'm the first to acknowledge that!
But the deadly food in rat traps is mostly good food...that tiny percent of it that is poison makes it deadly.
"......Koran tell people to abandone common sense, throw out their ability to reason, and do what goes against their conscience."
Kindly quote one verse where Quran commands to abandon common sense, also please quote the context verses- some verses preceding and some following, please.
I understand from my own experience that there is not a single such verse in Quran.
Regards
Spiderman
Veteran Member
2:193-“Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah.”
Fight until no other religion exists but Islam.
3:28-“The believers should not take the unbelievers as friends or helpers in preference to the believers. He who does this does not belong to Allah in anything, unless you have a fear of them.”
3:151-“We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.”
4:89-“”Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
5:51-“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors
8:12, 14-“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike them above the necks, smite their finger tips…. the punishment of the fire is for the unbelievers.”
9:1, 3, 5 and that Allah will humiliate the unbelievers…. And give glad tidings to the unbelievers of a painful punishment…. When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them.”
47:4-“Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers smite their necks, then, when you have killed many of them, tie the bonds
98:6-“The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the idolaters shall be for ever in the fire of gehenna (hell). They are the worst of all creatures.”
Koran 9:5 "Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.
Koran 9:30 "Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" Koran 5:33 "Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water melt their skin and bellies." Koran 22:19 Koran 3:28 "Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an."
5:33 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption (mischief) is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment
I don't care what a person does, cutting off hands and feet, pouring boiling water on their skin, hooking them with iron rods, burning them, or crucifying them, is far worse than death or killing them quickly. That is sick and wrong! If I was alive in the time of Muhammad, I would have fought against him and possibly had my hands and feet cut off. Without hands and feet you can't feed yourself or wipe your own butt. I think it is noble to fight against such bigotry and tyranny, please!
Regards!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Not much,
but I'm pretty sure I liked reading the book of "Mary" and took notes about that and some of the stories about Jesus and his miracles
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey said: ↑
"......Koran tell people to abandone common sense, throw out their ability to reason, and do what goes against their conscience."
Kindly quote one verse where Quran commands to abandon common sense, also please quote the context verses- some verses preceding and some following, please.
I understand from my own experience that there is not a single such verse in Quran.
I requested to quote "one verse" , so please just select one verse which has the commandment to abandon "common sense" or reason with the verses in the context.
None, of the above has any such verse, please.
Regards
"......Koran tell people to abandone common sense, throw out their ability to reason, and do what goes against their conscience."
Kindly quote one verse where Quran commands to abandon common sense, also please quote the context verses- some verses preceding and some following, please.
I understand from my own experience that there is not a single such verse in Quran.
I requested to quote "one verse" , so please just select one verse which has the commandment to abandon "common sense" or reason with the verses in the context.
None, of the above has any such verse, please.
Regards
Spiderman
Veteran Member
If you don't find any of those verses to be sick, barbaric, and extremely disturbing, you are too far lost in your allegiance to cruelety, bigotry, and barbaric atrocities, that there is nothing I can do to reason with you and help you.
You apparently believe it is okay to chop of my hands and feet so that I can't feed myself, walk, or wipe my butt, please!
I'd much rather you cut off my head, please!
You have a nice day, but I can't reason with you!
I tried!
Regards!
It's just a derogatory term meant to belittle a whole nation of people.
Best not to use the term.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Good answer!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
And yes, the verses i mentioned lacked common sense, humane treatment of human beings, lacked reason, and promoted torture, antisemitism, bigotry, mutilation, cutting off hands, feet, and crucifying those that oppose Islam!
Please!
JustWondering
Jerk
If a god exists and wants me to believe in and obey it, I'm here. Nothing as far as I'm aware is keeping it from reaching out to me. In the meantime, I haven't seen anything to convince me that ANY religion I know of is a reality. I'm not obligated to believe in or even respect ANY religion. As far as I can tell religion exists because people are full of themselves. They want to be safe. They don't want to die. They want to feel important. Religions help them fill those needs. The truth is that life isn't fair and then you die and are gone forever. Religious people like to say that such an outlook is depressing but I don't see it that way. I see it that I got to exist and live, life if only for a short time is a rare gift in this otherwise brutally inhospitable universe. I'll take and enjoy what I can and not be greedy, I'm not looking expectantly to the skies for some god to swoop down and spoil me with eternal life. As if any human deserves such a thing in the first place.
Tiapan
Grumpy Old Man
Religion for thousands of years has held societies together with a standard set of societal rules, good or bad it worked, as the greater the societal cooperation the more successful the society, as a whole.
As more study of the universe developed into science, answers long held as the domain of god deities became known.
Religious domination is gradually giving way to knowledge, we will never know everything, but we know a hell of a lot more than we did a 1000 years ago.
Change can be fast or slow the west went through a crazy time of the Inquisition etc in the 15th century similar to that occurring in many muslim countries today, but that was followed by the renaissance period and the age of enlightenment, to eventually end up where it is today, modernism.
In the middle east the jump is drastic, from "Goat herders" 100 years ago to modernism now, there is a lot of social inertia resisting the eventual separation of religion and state properly. That is why the middle east is such a mess. It will take time.
Cheers
As more study of the universe developed into science, answers long held as the domain of god deities became known.
Religious domination is gradually giving way to knowledge, we will never know everything, but we know a hell of a lot more than we did a 1000 years ago.
Change can be fast or slow the west went through a crazy time of the Inquisition etc in the 15th century similar to that occurring in many muslim countries today, but that was followed by the renaissance period and the age of enlightenment, to eventually end up where it is today, modernism.
In the middle east the jump is drastic, from "Goat herders" 100 years ago to modernism now, there is a lot of social inertia resisting the eventual separation of religion and state properly. That is why the middle east is such a mess. It will take time.
Cheers
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
I don't care what you have to say about goatherding nomads that like to slow-bleed animals.
But lumping the Bible with the Quran is, frankly speaking, kinda in poor form.
One of these was responsible for the development of European culture. The other helped worsen the Dark Ages.
Different as night and day.
But lumping the Bible with the Quran is, frankly speaking, kinda in poor form.
One of these was responsible for the development of European culture. The other helped worsen the Dark Ages.
Different as night and day.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
If you don't find any of those verses to be sick, barbaric, and extremely disturbing, you are too far lost in your allegiance to cruelety, bigotry, and barbaric atrocities, that there is nothing I can do to reason with you and help you.
You apparently believe it is okay to chop of my hands and feet so that I can't feed myself, walk, or wipe my butt, please!
I'd much rather you cut off my head, please!
You have a nice day, but I can't reason with you!
I tried!
Regards!
Thank you very much for these verses. When I was 25 I read the Quran, but can't remember I read such BAD verses [but in that time I was a big pleaser, could not say NO so probable ignored them or tried to smooth-talk them, even thinking who am I to judge, maybe I misread]. But I KNOW from experience that your copy/paste skills are remarkable (all done on smartphone, really amazing) and very accurate, so this must be correct. These verses are too sick for words [here I don't put IMHO, please]
Few month back I searched bad verses and found one Quran verse that was 100% wrong [IMO]. To be sure I downloaded ca. 10 Quran translations to be 100% sure I did not accidental found a bad Quran translation. I also took the context around (at least 10 verses before/after to be sure). So when I was 100% [99% is not enough] sure that no Quran scholar could defeat me, I posted it on RF Quran forum. And asked for explanation.
Hundreds of views, BUT not 1 dared to reply. Later I learned on RF that Muslim MUST believe that Quran is 100% perfect and word of God, so I understand their dilemma here. Christians in the Baptist Church I visited 4 years were like these Muslims [No error in the Bible]
My Guru speaks very high about Islam [Telling there is a verse about peace. He hardly criticizes anyway, BUT he does tell all "Never Hurt anyone, even not by word or thought". So He let them figure it out themselves]. AND He stated "I came to correct the mistakes in the Scriptures AND the Muslims will come last to Me".
I can now fully understand His quotes. Muslims can not admit their Quran has flaws in it.
I also like scriptures to be true of course. But if a verse is wrong we should be honest and admit this. ONLY THEN you are a real scholar. Scholars have become like politicians. They don't debate to defend the "truth", they seem to debate only to defend the "untruth". This is sick IMO. Murders many times walk free, because of politics or lawyers. Scholars should not be like that. We have a word in Dutch "Advocate of the Devil". These Scholars I call "Anti Christ".
@PopeADope: I will check your verses now. I Almost can't believe there are so many bad verses [My Guru sometimes sugarcoats things "there are some errors". My goodness I call these "major errors"]. But I trust you here. I mean if we ONLY find 1 verse that is enough to humble the arrogant Muslim claiming "The Quran is the word of God and there is not 1 error in it"
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Spiderman
Veteran Member
I'm very pleased to read this!
I've been getting discouraged by some of the people at this site who hate my posts, and falsely accuse me, and it is always warming my heart to have your support and rational thoughts!
(I wish the haters would put me on ignore.)
You are a true dependable friend!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Okay...the Koran beats the Bible in its degree of being a toxic read imo
Spiderman
Veteran Member
And some of the Bible is very enriching, wise, and worthwhile to read!
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Makes sense. Middle ages some were brutal, at least in Dutch history books. So my common sense tells me 1500 years prior can't be that civilized
Good to hear. There were goat herders around time of Quran also.
My take on that is that "writers of Quran were also ignorant and primitive"
I don't think that is a big stretch. I am curious if you now also say "I understand it"
[I say this, because many Muslims/Christians easily see it in the others scripture, but not in their own. I respect those who admit Quran errors]
[I understand it's not easy. If someone finds errors in "my Guru's scriptures" I would make sure India headquarters were informed even]
Fair enough one verse.
Wow that is quite a bold statement to make. But maybe your experience is quite limited.
Wow that is quite a cruel verse for a religion claiming "We are the religion of Peace". When that is true, then I highly doubt all other verses.
Okay our friend @PopeADope: gave you maybe 15 verses. I was really disgusted by what I read in these Quran verses.
And all you have to say is: "I requested to quote "one verse". When I got such a accusation of my gurus verses, the first thing I would shout out "Horrible, I must have blind not seeing this before. I hope the context will make it a bit better, but I can hardly imagine how to make such a cruel verse better. And then you grant me 15 of these verses. I will come back to you as soon as possible. I would immediately check my Scripture, 30 verses prior/after. If if really was that bad, I would mail headquarters and inform them. Even if I found 1 verse where he belittles another religion would be inexcusable. He claims He is Poorna Avatar, so better no such dumb errors".
But you start talking about "common sense" or reason. Now this shows total lack of common sense or reason IMO. Okay @PopeADope can be wrong on 2 or 3 verses, but for sure not all 15. Even if 1 such verse is cruel you have to let go the arrogance "Quran is perfect" IMO.
You try to dodge the bullet. @PopeADope: gives 15 verses of the utmost cruelty against atheists and humanists, and you try to divert the atom bomb by saying "please give me 1 verse about common sense and reason". And you just say "none of the above have any such verse"
What comes to mind here
Man raped + murdered a girl of 9 + ignored red traffic lights. Judge gives him 10 years. All he comes up with is "Sir, the light was green".
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stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Nice to read.I'm very pleased to read this!
I've been getting discouraged by some of the people at this site who hate my posts, and falsely accuse me, and it is always warming my heart to have your support and rational thoughts!
(I wish the haters would put me on ignore.)
You are a true dependable friend!
A tricky point. Sai Baba never criticized Islam/Muhammad. So I prefer to refrain from critcizing those 2. But violent Quran verses should be criticized IMO.
No human now alive (IMO) met Muhammad. Maybe He wrote perfect verses, and others wrote the violent verses. No proof. Makes no sense to talk negative about Muhammad. And what is the benefit talking negative about Muhammad?
Better challenge the unjustified violent Quran verses [to kill atheists or humanist for example]. Because Scriptures declare "Hurt Never. Love All". You gave good verses. I will check tonight the context. But I think even within context they are bad.
Example: If someone says "You are crazy to believe in Budhha IMHO". Then it is okay. It is just his opinion. Without "IMHO" it is definitely not okay to say that. That is why I have "IMHO" in my footer. Good reminder to write respectful.
So now I will check your verses. I am kind of interested, because Muslims claim there are "ZERO errors in Quran". That is a big claim, I love to check.
I did read scriptures that had no errors whatsoever (except language errors) as far as I could see. But Bible and Koran seem to have quite an abundance it seems.
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