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Global Harmony is Inevitable

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I'll admit that I lack your talent for seeing long-term trends by looking only at the present.
You'd just rather pretend for long-term trends by actively ignoring the state of the world?

Name the ten who destroy it, please.
Donald Trump, Mike Pence, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un, Moon Jae-in, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, Bashar al-Assad, Reuven Rivlin, Raúl Castro, Hassan Sheikh Mohamud, Jayalalithaa, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, Petro Poroshenko, David Cameron, Khalifa Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Sigmundur Davíð Gunnlaugsson, Mian Muhammad Nawaz Sharif...

Nonsense. The best we can hope for from the politicians is that they aren't completely corrupt.
That's quite a pessimistic outlook. Yet we're talking about expectations, not fears. We elect leaders with the expectation that they will do their job, and do right by the nation. Why do you think political corruption is such a big deal?
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
A. Average human beings today are kinder people than their average ancestors of any past era.

There's no way to know that one way or the other, and it only takes one evil person in a million to create havoc in any case, regardless of:
1. Population growth
2. Advances in weapons technology
3. Advances in communications technology



Evidence of moral progress is extensive. Here's a partial list:

• The hateful way the world's religions sometimes treat each other is still a problem today but the problem has diminished considerably since the time of the Crusades;
Well there's Islam wanting to establish Sharia Law and justify 911.
Mass shootings, purges in Germany, Russia, China, Cambodia, Iran, N. Korea on several issues.

• The sacred texts of Judaism, Christianity and Islam condone slavery and treat women as subservient to men in addition to giving other very bad moral advice. This is evidence that the men who wrote those texts two thousand years ago lived in societies that were morally immature by today's best standards;

• Racial and national prejudices have been weakening; among the nations, many once-traditional enemies are now trade partners;

They've only been heightening or reversing

• Imperialism is waning as powerful nations are much less likely today to want to dominate the weaker nations to extend their empire.

And those "freed" nations have mostly become victims of despotic regimes and economic s**tholes.

Etc.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I love science it's solved the anthropocene epoche....Which it created! If we can just get rid of those pesky bronze age poetry readers allawilla be awesome!
mushroom-cloud.jpg
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I wrote a recent post on my optimistic personal philosophy which replaces the need for a religion. I encountered resistance from a few pessimistic posters who used the word "Utopian" which implies unrealistic optimism. I also got resistance from a Christian who, based on scripture, predicts that the end times are near. So, here's my argument that global harmony is inevitable and that my optimism is a realistic prediction based on the evidence.

This is essentially a measurement problem, so we have to be careful to isolate what we intend to measure.

Here's what we need to know:

Q. Are average human beings today morally better, worse, or the same compared to their average ancestors?

A.
Average human beings today are kinder people than their average ancestors of any past era. Like a simple binary code, pain and pleasure signals coming from the unconscious function of our brains provide us with an on-board moral guidance system. We refer to it as our conscience. We are punished with the pain of guilt after we have intentionally caused harm to someone innocent. The pain of guilt is not severe, but it can nag us for a lifetime. When we treat others with kindness, we are rewarded with pleasure. We feel good about it.

Humanity is now, and probably has always been, making moral progress. We are treating each other better right now than at any time in our history. However, that encouraging fact is not obvious. There are five factors that can cloud our view:

1. Population growth causes the total number of criminal acts to increase even when the crime rate goes down. It also inflates the number of soldiers involved in wars.

2. Advances in weapons technology
inflate the numbers killed in war. Each soldier in the Second World War carried a more effective weapon than the soldiers in the Crusades; but that fact doesn't imply that the Crusader was a better human being.

3. Advances in communications technology
makes it possible for us to see video footage of violent events the day they happen from halfway around the world. In the USA of the 1950s the switch-blade knife wielding act of the disturbed teenager would have made page three of the local paper. Today, his far more harmful act using an assault rifle would be seen around the world.

4. We will read about far more rape, child molestation, and about men abusing their wives and children today than the public did in the 1920s. That is not because the rate of those crimes is increasing. It is because those crimes were seldom reported in those days. They were seldom reported because, if reported, they were seldom punished.

5. The belief that our primitive ancestors once lived in harmony with nature is most likely a popular myth accepted uncritically only by stubborn pessimists who, despite all the evidence to the contrary, remain convinced that humanity is going straight to hell.

Evidence of moral progress is extensive. Here's a partial list:

• The hateful way the world's religions sometimes treat each other is still a problem today but the problem has diminished considerably since the time of the Crusades;

• The sacred texts of Judaism, Christianity and Islam condone slavery and treat women as subservient to men in addition to giving other very bad moral advice. This is evidence that the men who wrote those texts two thousand years ago lived in societies that were morally immature by today's best standards;

• Racial and national prejudices have been weakening; among the nations, many once-traditional enemies are now trade partners;

• Imperialism is waning as powerful nations are much less likely today to want to dominate the weaker nations to extend their empire.

• Children of the poor are still used as cheap labor in a few cultures, but compared to the past, much progress has been made with Child Labor laws;

• In morally advanced cultures, men are learning to treat women as equals and they are not getting away with abusing women as they once did;

• Caste systems, like India's, which have resulted in unfairness for many over centuries, are gradually crumbling;

• Not very long ago, violent strikes were common during Management and Labor negotiations; it happens far less often today;

• Employers have learned that it is profitable to give both employees and consumers more respect and better treatment than they once did;

• Government corruption and oppression are still a problem but much progress has been made since governments for the people have been replacing governments for the privileged;

• During past wars in human history, civilian populations were ravaged; today, attempts are being made to limit the targeting to combatants;

• Because of the Geneva Convention and other similar efforts, prisoners of war are treated better now than at any time in our history;

• We still hear about prisoners being tortured but, in the Middle Ages, torture was a thriving industry. Clever devices were designed and made to maximize pain;

• NFL Football provides mild violence as entertainment, but it is nothing compared to the spectacle of slaughter seen in Rome's Colosseum;

• The nations of the world have abolished slavery; it's still a problem but not nearly to the extent that it was just a few centuries back.

• Oxford sociologist Manuel Eisner's study persuasively demonstrated a long-term pattern of declining homicide rates across Europe over 800 years.

• Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker makes a well-documented case for moral progress in his book History and the Decline of Human Violence. A brief summary of his argument can also be heard on his TED Talks video: The Surprising Decline of Violence.

Now that we have the evidence sorted, the argument for global harmony is fairly simple:

p = premise
C = Conclusion

p1 Humanity's moral progress is a long-term trend;

p2 When we make moral gains, we hold them. There's no evidence of backsliding; for example, we don't expect to someday see slavery condoned in the nations of the world as it once was.

p3 We humans are at our very best in responding to a crisis;

C1 Therefore, barring an unforeseeable calamity that will kill off our species, the moral gains will continue; we will hold those gains; and global harmony (I didn't say perfect harmony) is inevitable. It's just a matter of time.

EDIT: For additional evidence including some links, see Sunrise123's post #3.
Another edit: Sealchan suggested the upgrade in our care of the handicapped. I found this link: A History of Disability: from 1050 to the Present Day | Historic England
Damn pesky bronze age poetry readers are messed up!!! I love science, it has created the anthropocene epoch and has created a magic mushroom to fix it at the same time.

Btw nice southern baptist reading of the text. Thats the inbred part of the Christian clan, very secular evangelical of ya!!! College is a bit overrated but hey kids, what can we expect.
mushroom-cloud.jpg
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
That's to clear to be understandable.
It seems to me that we are one. Also, that since a thing can't exist in contradiction to itself, harmony must be our condition. Unfortunately, we see "though a glass darkly". Some harmonies I really, really don't like, never-the-less... Tryin' to clean the glass to see more clearly. I'm pretty sure egocentrism is a major hindrance to this endeavor.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that we are one. Also, that since a thing can't exist in contradiction to itself, harmony must be our condition. Unfortunately, we see "though a glass darkly". Some harmonies I really, really don't like, never-the-less... Tryin' to clean the glass to see more clearly. I'm pretty sure egocentrism is a major hindrance to this endeavor.
Seems to be a smart people issue. My daughter has no such problem!!
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@joe1776 I just wanted to let you know that I finally read this. When you told me about it, I put it off, and then I forgot all about it. Sorry!

All I can think of to say is that your arguments don’t look convincing to me, and it might take hundreds of hours to resolve all the issues I have with them. I’m not sure it would even be possible. All I know is that I’m not volunteering for it. If it helps you somehow, then it might help others. I’m really glad that you feel the way you do about the future, and I hope that your efforts to spread that optimism will be successful.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I like it that you see morality at the heart of possibilities for the future of the world.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
@joe1776 I just wanted to let you know that I finally read this. When you told me about it, I put it off, and then I forgot all about it. Sorry!

All I can think of to say is that your arguments don’t look convincing to me, and it might take hundreds of hours to resolve all the issues I have with them. I’m not sure it would even be possible. All I know is that I’m not volunteering for it. If it helps you somehow, then it might help others. I’m really glad that you feel the way you do about the future, and I hope that your efforts to spread that optimism will be successful.
No problem, Jim. Thanks for taking the time to read the OP.

I'm a bit surprised, though. I was under the impression that the goal of Baha'i was global harmony. I thought we'd agree on the outcome if not the means to achieve it.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I was under the impression that the goal of Baha'i was global harmony. I thought we'd agree on the outcome if not the means to achieve it.
In Baha’i scriptures it’s sometimes called “unity,” sometimes “fellowship,” but there’s much more than that in the vision. I’m trying to learn to help it happen. Whatever your vision is, if you’re trying to learn to help it happen, I would be glad for you to tell me all about what you’re doing.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
In Baha’i scriptures it’s sometimes called “unity,” sometimes “fellowship,” but there’s much more than that in the vision. I’m trying to learn to help it happen. Whatever your vision is, if you’re trying to learn to help it happen, I would be glad for you to tell me all about what you’re doing.
I think of myself as a global citizen which is an old idea (Diogenes declared himself a citizen of the world). Legally, I'm an American citizen but if an American policy conflicts with the welfare of the global community, I support the global interest. I recognize no attachments to any other group.

I have a limited understanding of Baha'i doctrine; and, while iv'e never found anything I don't agree with, I don't think religion is the right tool for the job of uniting humanity in global harmony. In my mind, religion's only undeniable accomplishment has been to divide humanity into thousands of quarreling sects. So, it seems to me more of an obstacle to be overcome in humanity's drive for harmony.

Aside from our opinions on religion, we'll probably agree on most of the important questions.

Global citizenship - Wikipedia
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
I think that some day it will no longer be popular to draw lines between people and devalue people across those lines, and that there will be a lot more peace, justice, freedom and prosperity for all people everywhere, than there has ever been before.

We'll probably agree on most of the important questions? You mean about social issues and what the world needs?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I'm wondering now ... do you see anything that looks to you like massive, murderous worldwide campaigns of plundering and pillaging, driven by global monopoly games?
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
I've given up hope of ever finding anyone on the Internet who shares my deepest interests, but I don't want to leave any stone unturned. My deepest interests are in continually improving my personality, character, and the way I live my life, in ways that might help make the world better for people around me, and for all people everywhere now and in the future; and in helping with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities, at the level of neighborhoods and villages, all around the world. That includes some ideas I've been practicing for Internet discussions to be more fruitful and beneficial, and for online communities to be healthier, happier and more loving for everyone in them.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Q. Are average human beings today morally better, worse, or the same compared to their average ancestors?

I don’t think so. In my opinion people are eviler than they ever have been. Modern people entertain themselves with violent games and movies, and behave relatively well only because governments monitor them by all surveillance stuff (phones, cameras…). Worst thing is that governments are more and more totalitarian/fascistic, politicians are probably more corrupt than they have ever been. Freedoms are limited and world is according to the news more polluted than ever. People seem to be generally ruled by fear and greed, not by love, as it would be, if people would obey Bible God, who is love according to the Bible.

By what I see, it wouldn’t be a surprise if God would end this right now.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I don’t think so. In my opinion people are eviler than they ever have been. Modern people entertain themselves with violent games and movies, and behave relatively well only because governments monitor them by all surveillance stuff (phones, cameras…). Worst thing is that governments are more and more totalitarian/fascistic, politicians are probably more corrupt than they have ever been. Freedoms are limited and world is according to the news more polluted than ever. People seem to be generally ruled by fear and greed, not by love, as it would be, if people would obey Bible God, who is love according to the Bible.

By what I see, it wouldn’t be a surprise if God would end this right now.
We disagree. Although I doubt that I can convince you to change your mind, I'll just point out that those who, like yourself, believe in the Bible offer evidence that humanity is making moral progress.

There was a time when Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians went to war and killed each other in wholesale numbers. They don't do that anymore.

There was a time when Christians went on Crusades to kill people of others faiths in the name of their God. They don't do that anymore.

There was a time when whichever group, Protestant or Catholic, was the largest and strongest, it would persecute the other smaller-weaker. They don't do that anymore.

There was a time when heretics were tortured to confess their sins and burned at the stake. Christians don't do that anymore.

Like the rest of humanity, Christians are becoming kinder people.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I've given up hope of ever finding anyone on the Internet who shares my deepest interests, but I don't want to leave any stone unturned. My deepest interests are in continually improving my personality, character, and the way I live my life, in ways that might help make the world better for people around me, and for all people everywhere now and in the future; and in helping with the growth and spread of healthier, happier and more loving communities, at the level of neighborhoods and villages, all around the world. That includes some ideas I've been practicing for Internet discussions to be more fruitful and beneficial, and for online communities to be healthier, happier and more loving for everyone in them.
Although most people would probably express it in a different way, personal development is a goal that I think most of us share. It provides the motive for interest in religion, philosophy, psychology and self-help books.

My particular interest in psychology (human nature) is due to the insights it might give me to improve my own nature -- to learn to live more skillfully.-- and to give my life meaning.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering now ... do you see anything that looks to you like massive, murderous worldwide campaigns of plundering and pillaging, driven by global monopoly games?
No, I don't. The only threat that concerns me is that an insane few might gain access to bombs that kill millions.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I think that some day it will no longer be popular to draw lines between people and devalue people across those lines, and that there will be a lot more peace, justice, freedom and prosperity for all people everywhere, than there has ever been before.

We'll probably agree on most of the important questions? You mean about social issues and what the world needs?
Yes. For example, I think we agree the the world needs an upgrade in the process of governing. Democratic elections won't produce the high quality decision-makers we need. However, we might disagree on how it might be done.
 
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