Genocide in 1st Samuel 15:2-3

[Autodidact]

:no:

You need to look at the big picture. The entire book (1 Samuel) is not really about the Amalekites. If you read the read the entire book, you would come to realise it is really about how Saul lost his kingship and all about the rise of David to ultimate power (for a human, at least).

The genocide of Amalekites was only used as a springboard for the story of Saul's downfall and David's eventual kingship. And of the two, God favoured David.

Of course, either way, the poor Amalekite babies are just as dead. But hey, as long as God gets the right king, who cares about a few dozen dead babies?

 

[gnostic]

I think you have also forgotten that God told Joshua to kill everyone in Jericho, keithnurse. (Joshua 6)

And everyone means women and children too, except for Rahab and her family, who aided the Israelite spies (Joshua 2).

The story is unrelated to what happen with Saul and the Amalekites, however the point is that God is not above ordering genocides, via the prophets.

What make you think that God couldn't order death of women and children?

David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had tricked her husband to being killed in battle.

Who do you think die? The baby son (not Solomon), who committed no sin at all.

God is not above punishing the son for the sin of the father.

 

[keithnurse]

Well, you'd seem to be forgetting one important character in the whole story - Samuel.

Did you forget him?

Samuel was chosen at a very young age - 1 Samuel 1-3. He was the last of the Judges, and a prophet. God chose Samuel to be his mouthpiece and 1st spoke to Samuel when he was still only a boy 1 Samuel 3.

When the Israelites wanted a king, it was Samuel who sought out Saul to be a king (1 Samuel 8-10). Have you forgotten this?

And after the Amalekite incident, Saul lost divine favours from God (1 Samuel 15), because Saul and his soldiers didn't completely obey God's order.

So who anointed David?

Samuel? (1 Samuel 16).

And God had a hand in turning against Saul.

God sent evil spirit that would torment Saul, whereby the king became both paranoid and jealous of David (1 Samuel 16:14-23; 1 Samuel 18:10-16; 1 Samuel 19:9-10; and perhaps there were more verses about the evil spirit).

Have you got these too?

If a God can sent evil spirit against someone, then he could easily also order people to commit genocide for disobedience.

I still think thinking that you are not seeing the whole picture of the book 1 Samuel.

So, your reasoning is if the Bible says God sent an evil spirit against Saul, then God DID send an evil spirit against Saul and there is now way that this is a human made up story? Are you also saying it's ok to commit genocide if God tells you to? Suppose I wanted to commit genocide agains some ethnic group and I made up the story that God told me to do it, so that makes it ok and what if someone disputed my story about God? I could respond by saying "how can you go against what God says? God told me to kill those people so should satisfy you that it is ok to kill those people".

 

[gnostic]

Of course, either way, the poor Amalekite babies are just as dead. But hey, as long as God gets the right king, who cares about a few dozen dead babies?

Apparently that's the way it is.

 

[gnostic]

So, your reasoning is if the Bible says God sent an evil spirit against Saul, then God DID send an evil spirit against Saul and there is now way that this is a human made up story? Are you also saying it's ok to commit genocide if God tells you to?

Then are you telling me that Samuel, Saul and David don't exist?

That the whole story of 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel didn't happen?

You tell me.

I have no trouble at all, calling all the biblical stories as myths or legends, because I don't believe in the biblical stories to be true, and certainly not historical or factual. I am not Christian, Jew or Muslim.

This is the way the story was written, and that's the only record we have.

Could this just be a propaganda?

But who was the one who initiate the propaganda?

 

[keithnurse]

Then are you telling me that Samuel, Saul and David don't exist?
No, I don't know whether they existed or not. That's not my point.
That the whole story of 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel didn't happen?
That's not my point either. Read my posts again. If the Amalekite genocide occurred, I think the Israelites did it for their own reasons and made up a self serving story about God telling them to do it.
You tell me.

I have no trouble at all, calling all the biblical stories as myths or legends, because I don't believe in the biblical stories to be true, and certainly not historical or factual. I am not Christian, Jew or Muslim.

This is the way the story was written, and that's the only record we have.

Could this just be a propaganda?

But who was the one who initiate the propaganda?

I don't know who initiated it.

 

[keithnurse]

Then are you telling me that Samuel, Saul and David don't exist?

That the whole story of 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel didn't happen?

You tell me.

I have no trouble at all, calling all the biblical stories as myths or legends, because I don't believe in the biblical stories to be true, and certainly not historical or factual. I am not Christian, Jew or Muslim.

This is the way the story was written, and that's the only record we have.

Could this just be a propaganda?

But who was the one who initiate the propaganda?

Have you read anything I have written here? I did not say those people didn't exist or that all of 1st and 2nd Samuel are myths. I said that if the Amalekite genocide happened, that I am guessing that the Israelites had their own reasons for wanting to get rid of the Amalekites and then made up a self serving story about God ordering it to make it ok. I don't absolutely know this but know that people massacre other people and we don't absolutely know that God tells people to do anything so I think it is more reasonable to believe the story of God ordering the genocide is a made up story. Who initiated the propoganda? I don't know.

 

[Carico]

Then are you telling me that Samuel, Saul and David don't exist?

That the whole story of 1 Samuel and 2 Samuel didn't happen?

You tell me.

I have no trouble at all, calling all the biblical stories as myths or legends, because I don't believe in the biblical stories to be true, and certainly not historical or factual. I am not Christian, Jew or Muslim.

This is the way the story was written, and that's the only record we have.

Could this just be a propaganda?

But who was the one who initiate the propaganda?

Unbelievers love to make up a history of the Jews of their imaginations without proof for their claims. That of course makes their stories imaginary.

 

[keithnurse]

Reading the views of people like Carico just breaks my heart that people can be so blinded by a belief system that they can't see reality. It's like trying to reason with a holocaust denier.

 

[Carico]

Reading the views of people like Carico just breaks my heart that people can be so blinded by a belief system that they can't see reality. It's like trying to reason with a holocaust denier.

It isn't I who denies evidence, it's you. So it's your eyes that are closed. Thus your post is untrue and is thus slander. Slander isn't a valid argument so it just returns to the heart it came from. Goodnight.

 

[keithnurse]

It isn't slander, it's a disagreement about religion.

 

[gnostic]

Unbelievers love to make up a history of the Jews of their imaginations without proof for their claims. That of course makes their stories imaginary.

The main sources for the so-called history of Samuel, Saul and David comes from the 1st book of Samuel, so this is the source I used. Samuel certainly didn't write the 1st book (nor the 2nd book for that matter, because he died perhaps more than 3/4 of the way through the 1st book (in chapter 25 to be more precise).

Do you have evidence to support the story of Samuel, Saul and David, then I would sincerely like to see them.

And this topic is not about the factual evidence of anyone. Just is God responsible for the genocide of the Amalekites. And chapter 15 of the 1st book of Samuel is our only record of it.

I didn't make it up.

Have you read anything I have written here? I did not say those people didn't exist or that all of 1st and 2nd Samuel are myths.

I am not saying that you are claiming it to be a myth, but what you are suggesting that this is propaganda, thinking that God is not responsible for it. Hence, my response to it as being "myth".

• Did the prophet Samuel got the order for Saul FROM GOD to execute the genocide or not?
• If not, then who did Samuel get it from?

Unless you have something more concrete to support that God didn't order the massacre of the Amalekites then you all your have just your opinion and speculation.

 

[Carico]

The main sources for the so-called history of Samuel, Saul and David comes from the 1st book of Samuel, so this is the source I used. Samuel certainly didn't write the 1st book (nor the 2nd book for that matter, because he died perhaps more than 3/4 of the way through the 1st book (in chapter 25 to be more precise).

Do you have evidence to support the story of Samuel, Saul and David, then I would sincerely like to see them.

And this topic is not about the factual evidence of anyone. Just is God responsible for the genocide of the Amalekites. And chapter 15 of the 1st book of Samuel is our only record of it.

I didn't make it up.



I am not saying that you are claiming it to be a myth, but what you are suggesting that this is propaganda, thinking that God is not responsible for it. Hence, my response to it as being "myth".

• Did the prophet Samuel got the order for Saul FROM GOD to execute the genocide or not?
• If not, then who did Samuel get it from?

Unless you have something more concrete to support that God didn't order the massacre of the Amalekites then you all your have just your opinion and speculation.

You first need to do your research of the history of the Jews by not only reading the bible but reading the history of those who interacted with the Jews, such as the history of Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, etc. Then you need to visit Israel to see that most of the cities talked about in the bible are still there, including the tombs of the prominent OT people. You can find out the history of the Jewish kings from the Jews themselves. Until you do that, it will be a waste of time conversing with you.

 

[Ringer]

I know people probably don't like following link or even reading an article that has a bit of length to it but this seemed like a good piece of information after I went through it all. It is broken down by commonly asked questions in regards to this issue so maybe you'll find some good background information on Israel and the Amalakites.

shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes?

 

[gnostic]

You first need to do your research of the history of the Jews by not only reading the bible but reading the history of those who interacted with the Jews, such as the history of Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, etc.

And is there anything in Assyrian, Babylonian or Egyptian history that have a single reference to Samuel, Saul or David?

This thread is about the events of what happened 1 Samuel 15, and there are no independent sources (from history of foreign civilisations) about the massacre of the Amalekites, by the Israelites, let alone no records of these 3 biblical figures (Samuel, Saul or David).

You speak of famous empires, but nothing from the entire book 1 Samuel can be found to parallel in the history of those same famous empires.

Until you do that, it will be a waste of time conversing with you.

Right back at you.

 

[Autodidact]

Unbelievers love to make up a history of the Jews of their imaginations without proof for their claims. That of course makes their stories imaginary.

Which is the real story, which is made up? Did God order the Israelits to commit genocide and infanticide? Was God angry and through Moses order this soldiers to go back and be sure to kill all the little boy babies? Or is that the made up version? Does God order His people to slaughter infants and children, or doesn't he?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

KEITHNURSE,
The only problem I have with this thread is you are using a single event or section of the bible for your agenda.
Your agenda clearly is to tell everyone the bible isn't true and if anyone believes in it they are ... well you can fill in the blanks.

You are asserting the the Israelites made up the story. OK, so what? That would mean that the whole bible could be made up!!!! So why not just say that????? You are not alone, many people feel the bible is entirely fictitious. Maybe you believe some of it is.

At any rate, after reading all of the posts on this thread, what is your point? No one can prove God wrote that or the Jews wrote that. As adults don't we ALL already know that?

 

[Carico]

And is there anything in Assyrian, Babylonian or Egyptian history that have a single reference to Samuel, Saul or David?

This thread is about the events of what happened 1 Samuel 15, and there are no independent sources (from history of foreign civilisations) about the massacre of the Amalekites, by the Israelites, let alone no records of these 3 biblical figures (Samuel, Saul or David).

You speak of famous empires, but nothing from the entire book 1 Samuel can be found to parallel in the history of those same famous empires.



Right back at you.

Okay since you believe that the Jews are the only group of people who are lying about their history (which is anti-semitic), then please tell us the real history of the Jews. You need to back up your claims or you're a slanderer. My claims have been backed up by the bible. So let's hear some facts from you to support your position. So tell us who the real kings of Israel and Judah were, when they lived and what they did. Otherwise, there's no point in listening to you.

 

[Autodidact]

Okay since you believe that the Jews are the only group of people who are lying about their history (which is anti-semitic), then please tell us the real history of the Jews. You need to back up your claims or you're a slanderer. My claims have been backed up by the bible. So let's hear some facts from you to support your position. So tell us who the real kings of Israel and Judah were, when they lived and what they did. Otherwise, there's no point in listening to you.

Could you clarify? Are you saying that the OT is an accurate history of the Jews? That they did repeatedly commit genocide, at God's commandment and with His approval?

 

[Autodidact]

KEITHNURSE,
The only problem I have with this thread is you are using a single event or section of the bible for your agenda.
Your agenda clearly is to tell everyone the bible isn't true and if anyone believes in it they are ... well you can fill in the blanks.

You are asserting the the Israelites made up the story. OK, so what? That would mean that the whole bible could be made up!!!! So why not just say that????? You are not alone, many people feel the bible is entirely fictitious. Maybe you believe some of it is.

At any rate, after reading all of the posts on this thread, what is your point? No one can prove God wrote that or the Jews wrote that. As adults don't we ALL already know that?

Are you claiming that Carico is not an adult?