Gender reassignment/affirming surgery

[Ignatius A]

I went looking to find how many genders are now recognized. The link below shows a very modest 8 but we know there are many more. The article admits that and goes on to say:

"There are many more gender identities then we’ve listed. Gender can be complex and people are defining themselves in new and different ways as we gain a deeper understanding of identities. "

That statement might even suggest there could be as many genders as there are people who identify themselves as whatever gender they claim to be. So my question is when people go for gender reassignment/confirming surgery could someone choose zuch surgery to become, Two Spirit?

Gender Identity

Gender identity is how a person feels and who they know them self to be when it comes to their gender. There are more than two genders, even though in our society the genders that are most recognized are male and female (called the gender binary) and usually is based on someone’s anatomy (the...

teentalk.ca

 

[Ignatius A]

I went looking to find how many genders are now recognized. The link below shows a very modest 8 but we know there are many more. The article admits that and goes on to say:

"There are many more gender identities then we’ve listed. Gender can be complex and people are defining themselves in new and different ways as we gain a deeper understanding of identities. "

That statement might even suggest there could be as many genders as there are people who identify themselves as whatever gender they claim to be. So my question is when people go for gender reassignment/confirming surgery could someone choose zuch surgery to become, Two Spirit?

Gender Identity

Gender identity is how a person feels and who they know them self to be when it comes to their gender. There are more than two genders, even though in our society the genders that are most recognized are male and female (called the gender binary) and usually is based on someone’s anatomy (the...

teentalk.ca

I thought the gender affirming care community would have jumped all over this.

 

[wellwisher]

I went looking to find how many genders are now recognized. The link below shows a very modest 8 but we know there are many more. The article admits that and goes on to say:

"There are many more gender identities then we’ve listed. Gender can be complex and people are defining themselves in new and different ways as we gain a deeper understanding of identities. "

That statement might even suggest there could be as many genders as there are people who identify themselves as whatever gender they claim to be. So my question is when people go for gender reassignment/confirming surgery could someone choose zuch surgery to become, Two Spirit?

Gender Identity

Gender identity is how a person feels and who they know them self to be when it comes to their gender. There are more than two genders, even though in our society the genders that are most recognized are male and female (called the gender binary) and usually is based on someone’s anatomy (the...

teentalk.ca

Gender is as diverse as all costumes at a Halloween Party. At such parties there will be some basic costumer types; 6-12, that are most common. There will also be retro and even new costumes of futuristic characters. Much of this will be free market driven, based on bean counters predicting costume demand for the fall line up.

Humans can pretend all typed of things. This used to be called fetish. In some circles, there is a fine line between abuse and fetish. But after the party, people used to go home to become Joe or Joan average. Few had a permanent costume installed, that needs to be monthly serviced to stay fresh looking. This new permanent fetish niche appears to have free market written all over it.

The cosmetic and fashion industries have lots of luck with female, with most addicted for decades. The had hard times in the 1960-70's when natural was in. However, but the 1980's they saw industry growth with disco women and by attracting the male sector. The male sector was always falling short, until Gay and Trans became part of the social mix. Both often use more makeup than the hardiest of the ladies; drag queens. This is why advertisers started to deceive children, with the DNC run consumer protection agency, told to stand down and sleep at the wheel.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I went looking to find how many genders are now recognized. The link below shows a very modest 8 but we know there are many more. The article admits that and goes on to say:

"There are many more gender identities then we’ve listed. Gender can be complex and people are defining themselves in new and different ways as we gain a deeper understanding of identities. "

That statement might even suggest there could be as many genders as there are people who identify themselves as whatever gender they claim to be. So my question is when people go for gender reassignment/confirming surgery could someone choose zuch surgery to become, Two Spirit?

No, partly because you don't use surgery to become a gender; gender is a socially constructed label. People can simply alter their bodies to conform with their personal idea of how they wish their identity (gender or otherwise) be expressed, just as with all forms of cosmetic surgery.

Also, Two-Spirit seems not to be a conventional gender identity in the usual sense, but a social concept specific to indigenous groups and their approach to the concept of a third gender. From what I have read, most people who identify as "third gender" find the idea of surgery to affirm their gender odd, because they have no reason to believe their body and their gender are in any way incongruent. Their gender is, as such, already affirmed because there are no physical standards they feel they have to meet in order to be identified socially.

Of course, this is only a very outsider perspective based on my limited reading. I'd be open to elaboration and correction.

Two-spirit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A Nehiyô Two-Spirit Physician’s Reflections On Providing Indigenous Interventions In Modern Medicine

"I am first and foremost a Nehiyô Two-Spirit person and citizen of my Indigenous nation. Then I am a physician. That is how I practice medicine."

www.forbes.com

 

[Ignatius A]

No, partly because you don't use surgery to become a gender; gender is a socially constructed label. People can simply alter their bodies to confirm with their personal idea of how they wish their identity (gender or otherwise) be expressed, just as with all forms of cosmetic surgery.

Also, Two-Spirit seems not to be a conventional gender identity in the usual sense, but a social concept specific to indigenous groups and their approach to the concept of a third gender. From what I have read, most people who identify as "third gender" find the idea of surgery to affirm their gender odd, because they have no reason to believe their body and their gender are in any way incongruent. Their gender is, as such, already affirmed because there are no physical standards they feel they have to meet in order to be identified socially.

Of course, this is only a very outsider perspective based on my limited reading. I'd be open to elaboration and correction.

Two-spirit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A Nehiyô Two-Spirit Physician’s Reflections On Providing Indigenous Interventions In Modern Medicine

"I am first and foremost a Nehiyô Two-Spirit person and citizen of my Indigenous nation. Then I am a physician. That is how I practice medicine."

www.forbes.com

Why would someone need to alter their body if gender is a socially constructed? Claiming they alter their bodies to "... confirm with their personal idea of how they wish their identity (gender or otherwise) be expressed, just as with all forms of cosmetic surgery." seems to suggest their are physical indicators of gender. If not why would they have to alter them? If gender is simple how one identifies why alter anything?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Why would someone need to alter their body if gender is a socially constructed?

Because people have conceptions about how you are supposed to look in order to fit certain social categories, and these ideas are impressed upon people from a very young age. For example, the idea that to be seen as a women you must look feminine, to be seen as a man you must look masculine, etc.

Claiming they alter their bodies to "... confirm with their personal idea of how they wish their identity (gender or otherwise) be expressed, just as with all forms of cosmetic surgery." seems to suggest their are physical indicators of gender.

Well, yeah. Of course there are. But these are still limited to how we PERSONALLY view gender. For example, for one person, "being a woman" must necessarily mean signalling it to people with, for example, dresses, long hair and makeup. However, to someone else, they might feel that what it means TO THEM to "be a woman" doesn't necessitate any of those things, nor make those things preferable. It's like any other form of self-expression and identity.

If not why would they have to alter them? If gender is simple how one identifies why alter anything?

Because we live in a society where people tend to judge you by appearance and specific social cues. People judge what categories we belong to by how we look, and since we all wish to be seen a specific way it's much easier to be identified a specific way by simply giving people the cues they expect to find. A woman who constantly gets mistaken for a man might avoid that by, for example, wearing dresses and makeup in a society where wearing dresses and makeup are seen as things that only women are expected to do.

Of course, there's always still the personal aspect of "people want to look how they want to look, regardless of what others think" as well. Not everyone cares exclusively about the social cues. But when talking about these issues sociologically that's how we tend to view it.

 

[Ignatius A]

Because people have conceptions about how you are supposed to look in order to fit certain social categories, and these ideas are impressed upon people from a very young age. For example, the idea that to be seen as a women you must look feminine, to be seen as a man you must look masculine, etc.


Well, yeah. Of course there are. But these are still limited to how we PERSONALLY view gender. For example, for one person, "being a woman" must necessarily mean signalling it to people with, for example, dresses, long hair and makeup. However, to someone else, they might feel that what it means TO THEM to "be a woman" doesn't necessitate any of those things, nor make those things preferable. It's like any other form of self-expression and identity.


Because we live in a society where people tend to judge you by appearance and specific social cues. People judge what categories we belong to by how we look, and since we all wish to be seen a specific way it's much easier to be identified a specific way by simply giving people the cues they expect to find. A woman who constantly gets mistaken for a man might avoid that by, for example, wearing dresses and makeup in a society where wearing dresses and makeup are seen as things that only women are expected to do.

Of course, there's always still the personal aspect of "people want to look how they want to look, regardless of what others think" as well. Not everyone cares exclusively about the social cues. But when talking about these issues sociologically that's how we tend to view it.

But isnt the point of all these genders that it's all just socially constructed anyway and how one looks is irrelevant? We apparently can't say someone with a penis is a man right? Yet people who alter their appearance go crazy if someone misgenders them even though there is no way to someone is non binary or two sprit.

Making decisions based on the judgement of others is immature.

Then if they do it to look they way they want to look they shouldn't care whether or not they "misgendered".

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But isnt the point of all these genders that it's all just socially constructed anyway and how one looks is irrelevant?

No. The point is to give people the freedom to be who they are. Their looks are as relevant as they want them to be.

We apparently can't say someone with a penis is a man right?

You can say someone with a penis is biologically male (in the vast majority of cases). I have no issue with your phrasing as a shorthand, though. It's just not definitionally, biologically or socially accurate.

Yet people who alter their appearance go crazy if someone misgenders them even though there is no way to someone is non binary or two sprit.

I know many trans people, and not one of them ever "goes crazy" if they are misgendered, unless that misgendering is deliberate and persistent. The vast majority of trans people, if misgendered, will just correct you.

Making decisions based on the judgement of others is immature.

Literally everybody does it. You wouldn't argue that we should ban boob jobs or flashy clothes for the same reason. People are allowed to look how they want to look.

Then if they do it to look they way they want to look they shouldn't care whether or not they "misgendered".

Why shouldn't they? If someone persistently referred to you as the wrong gender, would you not care?

 

[Ignatius A]

No. The point is to give people the freedom to be who they are. Their looks are as relevant as they want them to be.


You can say someone with a penis is biologically male (in the vast majority of cases). I have no issue with your phrasing as a shorthand, though. It's just not definitionally, biologically or socially accurate.


I know many trans people, and not one of them ever "goes crazy" if they are misgendered, unless that misgendering is deliberate and persistent. The vast majority of trans people, if misgendered, will just correct you.


Literally everybody does it. You wouldn't argue that we should ban boob jobs or flashy clothes for the same reason. People are allowed to look how they want to look.


Why shouldn't they? If someone persistently referred to you as the wrong gender, would you not care?

No I wouldn't because you nor anyone else determines my gender. Biology did that.
No. The point is to give people the freedom to be who they are. Their looks are as relevant as they want them to be.


You can say someone with a penis is biologically male (in the vast majority of cases). I have no issue with your phrasing as a shorthand, though. It's just not definitionally, biologically or socially accurate.


I know many trans people, and not one of them ever "goes crazy" if they are misgendered, unless that misgendering is deliberate and persistent. The vast majority of trans people, if misgendered, will just correct you.


Literally everybody does it. You wouldn't argue that we should ban boob jobs or flashy clothes for the same reason. People are allowed to look how they want to look.


Why shouldn't they? If someone persistently referred to you as the wrong gender, would you not care?

Or demand I accept them.

You haven't seen videos of trans people going bonkers over being "misgendered"?

But it accurate. Its also be accurate to say someone with a penis is a man and they think they aren't a man.

No. The point is to give people the freedom to be who they are. Their looks are as relevant as they want them to be.


You can say someone with a penis is biologically male (in the vast majority of cases). I have no issue with your phrasing as a shorthand, though. It's just not definitionally, biologically or socially accurate.


I know many trans people, and not one of them ever "goes crazy" if they are misgendered, unless that misgendering is deliberate and persistent. The vast majority of trans people, if misgendered, will just correct you.


Literally everybody does it. You wouldn't argue that we should ban boob jobs or flashy clothes for the same reason. People are allowed to look how they want to look.


Why shouldn't they? If someone persistently referred to you as the wrong gender, would you not care?

If you get a boob job because others think your flat chested or wear flashing clothes because of what others think about you if you don't is immature.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Or demand I accept them.

Do you "demand" people call you male?

You haven't seen videos of trans people going bonkers over being "misgendered"?

Of course I have. I have also seen videos of bears riding bicycles, and of dogs driving cars. It doesn't mean that these things are common. If you ever meet and interact with trans people, the vast majority of them when misgendered - just like the vast majority of people if you were to get their name wrong, or anything similar - will simply just correct you, and will only "go bonkers" (as you put it) when intentionally and/or repeatedly misgendered, as they are perfectly entitled to do when someone is being deliberately provocative and rude to them for no reason. Again, I am sure someone repeatedly calling you a girl would eventually illicit a "bonkers" response.

But it accurate. Its also be accurate to say someone with a penis is a man and they think they aren't a man.

No, it isn't. You wouldn't call a man who lost his penis in an accident - or due to amputation for medical reasons - not a man, so it is not as accurate as saying "having a penis is a very common feature of biological males". Your definition, at best, can be said to be true in the majority of cases, but if you want it to be an ACCURATE definition you fall distinctly short.

If you get a boob job because others think your flat chested or wear flashing clothes because of what others think about you if you don't is immature.

If you feel that way, fine. I, personally, don't presume I have a better understanding of why someone is doing something to themselves like that than they do, and I think it's wrong to impose on people unreasonable limits on what they are allowed to do, aesthetically, with their own bodies. People are free to do as they please, and if it makes them happier - for whatever reason - what harm is it to you?

 

[Ignatius A]

Do you "demand" people call you male?


Of course I have. I have also seen videos of bears riding bicycles, and of dogs driving cars. It doesn't mean that these things are common. If you ever meet and interact with trans people, the vast majority of them when misgendered - just like the vast majority of people if you were to get their name wrong, or anything similar - will simply just correct you, and will only "go bonkers" (as you put it) when intentionally and/or repeatedly misgendered, as they are perfectly entitled to do when someone is being deliberately provocative and rude to them for no reason. Again, I am sure someone repeatedly calling you a girl would eventually illicit a "bonkers" response.


No, it isn't. You wouldn't call a man who lost his penis in an accident - or due to amputation for medical reasons - not a man, so it is not as accurate as saying "having a penis is a very common feature of biological males". Your definition, at best, can be said to be true in the majority of cases, but if you want it to be an ACCURATE definition you fall distinctly short.


If you feel that way, fine. I, personally, don't presume I have a better understanding of why someone is doing something to themselves like that than they do, and I think it's wrong to impose on people unreasonable limits on what they are allowed to do, aesthetically, with their own bodies. People are free to do as they please, and if it makes them happier - for whatever reason - what harm is it to you?

No but wild eyed trans people expect we are supposed to know their gender and if you don't they go insane. I don't care what people call me. Other people don't determine who or what I am. I also dont change to make other people think differently of me.

They bare bonkers. Id call them freaks regardless of their "preferred" pronouns but I don't because I'm a decent person but I won't be admonished for looking at someone who is obviously a man but wearing a dress and calling them "he". Dresses don't make you a woman right? Just like a vagina doest make you a woman either, right? But somehow I'm supposed to know someone is one of 334 different genders. Sorry I'm not playing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No but wild eyed trans people expect we are supposed to know their gender and if you don't they go insane.

That sounds like a very exaggerated emotional statement to me.

I accidentally misgendered a person a little while back ... they weren't "wild eyed" and they didn't "go insane." They just calmly corrected me.

I don't care what people call me. Other people don't determine who or what I am. I also dont change to make other people think differently of me.

Okay Sally. You're such pretty girl, Sally.

They bare bonkers. Id call them freaks regardless of their "preferred" pronouns

You've basically done just that, here in this thread, Sally.

but I don't because I'm a decent person but I won't be admonished for looking at someone who is obviously a man but wearing a dress and calling them "he". Dresses don't make you a woman right? Just like a vagina doest make you a woman either, right? But somehow I'm supposed to know someone is one of 334 different genders. Sorry I'm not playing.

This is the giant problem you seem to want it to be, Sally.

All you have to do is what you've probably been doing your entire life thus far: Refer to people as they've asked to be referred to as. I mean, you haven't check the genitals of every person you've ever met before deciding whether you'll call them what they've asked to be called, right?

 

[Ignatius A]

That sounds like a very exaggerated emotional statement to me.

I accidentally misgendered a person a little while back ... they weren't "wild eyed" and they didn't "go insane." They just calmly corrected me.


Okay Sally. You're such pretty girl, Sally.

You've basically done just that, here in this thread, Sally.

This is the giant problem you seem to want it to be, Sally.

All you have to do is what you've probably been doing your entire life thus far: Refer to people as they've asked to be referred to as. I mean, you haven't check the genitals of every person you've ever met before deciding whether you'll call them what they've asked to be called, right?

It's a fact. You people have this notion that something is true simply because you believe it.

Damn right I'm pretty but you're jealousy about it isn't.

I'm "mean" arent I?

I am beginning to think you people choose not to listen. If you want me to call you a kumquat I will call you a kumquat but you still arent a kumquat. But if you're a man in a dress and I dont know you or have talked to you and I call you "he", I dont believe I have any reason to tolerate having someone fly off the handle at me for "misgendering" them. At that point I have no regard for you whatsoever.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No but wild eyed trans people expect we are supposed to know their gender and if you don't they go insane. I don't care what people call me. Other people don't determine who or what I am. I also dont change to make other people think differently of me.

They bare bonkers. Id call them freaks regardless of their "preferred" pronouns but I don't because I'm a decent person but I won't be admonished for looking at someone who is obviously a man but wearing a dress and calling them "he". Dresses don't make you a woman right? Just like a vagina doest make you a woman either, right? But somehow I'm supposed to know someone is one of 334 different genders. Sorry I'm not playing.

I don't blame you. This utter craziness needs to be stopped.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's a fact. You people have this notion that something is true simply because you believe it.

What's a fact?

Damn right I'm pretty but you're jealousy about it isn't.

Sure thing, Sally.

I'm "mean" arent I?

If you're intentionally misgendering people, I'd have to say yes.

I am beginning to think you people choose not to listen. If you want me to call you a kumquat I will call you a kumquat but you still arent a kumquat. But if you're a man in a dress and I dont know you or have talked to you and I call you "he", I dont believe I have any reason to tolerate having someone fly off the handle at me for "misgendering" them. At that point I have no regard for you whatsoever.

Has someone actually flied off the handle with you, or is this just some hypothetical based on your feelings?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't blame you. This utter craziness needs to be stopped.

Calling people the name they want to be called is "craziness" that "needs to be stopped?"
What's crazy about it?

Nobody ever responds to his point, so I'll pose it to you:
All you have to do is what you've probably been doing your entire life thus far: Refer to people as they've asked to be referred to as. I mean, you haven't check the genitals of every person you've ever met before deciding whether you'll call them what they've asked to be called, right?

 

[Quintessence]

Imagine that - human identity and especially personal identity is complicated! Who knew? It's only been complicated since humanity has existed, right?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Calling people the name they want to be called is "craziness" that "needs to be stopped?"
What's crazy about it?

Nobody ever responds to his point, so I'll pose it to you:
All you have to do is what you've probably been doing your entire life thus far: Refer to people as they've asked to be referred to as. I mean, you haven't check the genitals of every person you've ever met before deciding whether you'll call them what they've asked to be called, right?

This kind of craziness.....

Planet Fitness Revokes Membership of Woman Who Videoed Trans Woman in Locker Room

Planet Fitness is facing a backlash from some conservatives after the fitness chain revoked the membership of a woman who took a photo of a naked person in a women's locker room at one of the chain's locations in Fairbanks, Alaska.

www.athleticbusiness.com

 

[SkepticThinker]

This kind of craziness.....

Planet Fitness Revokes Membership of Woman Who Videoed Trans Woman in Locker Room

Planet Fitness is facing a backlash from some conservatives after the fitness chain revoked the membership of a woman who took a photo of a naked person in a women's locker room at one of the chain's locations in Fairbanks, Alaska.

www.athleticbusiness.com

So you won't respond to my point either.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So you won't respond to my point either.

You don't have a point then.