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Gaza-Israel: for the record

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't take your source at face value for credibility. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Israel did some unpleasant things during Operation Cast Lead. Nor has Israel been doing any major operations since 2009. That is over 12 years. In that case it was terribly stupid of Hamas to start things as they have recently. So Hamas' actions are the predicate cause of the current troubles, not Israel.
Is Hamas so stupid? They pulled off a massive attack
that caught the vaunted Israeli security machine off guard.
They've made Israel's human rights violations prominent
on the world stage as never before. Criticizing Israel is
becoming more accepted than ever before. US hypocrisy
is becoming a political problem here. Western military
resources are being diverted from other hot spots.

I'm not saying they did the right thing. Much death &
destruction is a high price to pay. So stupidity is the
wrong assumption. The cost & goals should be
challenged.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't accept your figures at face value.
But you accept Israeli figures without question?
You quickly believe the "beheaded baby" claim?
Even though Israel has no reporters in Gaza?
You are being cognitively dissonant.
Nay, you are in denial.
Observing the massive destruction in Gaza
actually makes the 10K figure look low.
But unlike Israel, which names the victims
& kidnapped, publishing them all over,
Palestinians die in anonymity, other than
the few with western connections, eg, dead
family members of news reporters.
 

Bthoth

A Conscious and Capable, Pantheist
I don't take your source at face value for credibility. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Israel did some unpleasant things during Operation Cast Lead. Nor has Israel been doing any major operations since 2009. That is over 12 years. In that case it was terribly stupid of Hamas to start things as they have recently. So Hamas' actions are the predicate cause of the current troubles, not Israel.
Sorry, the settlers have been attacking palestinians constantly since they began moving into the west bank.
You have it backwards. HAMAS has been quiet since 2009 and the israeli nut cases have been terrorizing Palestinians ever since.

That's the problem, the whackado's require that mount and the locals are unwilling to leave.

Look up the attacks upon the locals at the mount. It's been ongoing for almost ever. Then when trump signed s1322 embassy act, moving the US embassy into jerusalem, it turned even uglier. The illegal occupation must end.

Simply put Jerusalem is not Israel. NO matter the religion, no matter the whining of zionist.
 

Bthoth

A Conscious and Capable, Pantheist
Is Hamas so stupid? They pulled off a massive attack
that caught the vaunted Israeli security machine off guard.
They've made Israel's human rights violations prominent
on the world stage as never before.
Criticizing israel has been occurring within the Jewish community for decades. Many Jews here in the USA have been against israel since inception.
Criticizing Israel is
becoming more accepted than ever before. US hypocrisy
is becoming a political problem here. Western military
resources are being diverted from other hot spots.
Now that is occurring as the US population is tired of war mongering.
I'm not saying they did the right thing.

What HAMAS did was not just wrong, it was stupid.
Much death &
destruction is a high price to pay. So stupidity is the
wrong assumption. The cost & goals should be
challenged.
If israel was put in check a long time ago, perhaps the children of the dead palestinians could have had a chance to grow out of their hatred. But now settlers from all over the world have created terrorist groups within Israel boldly attacking anything that is not supporting the pursuit of that mount.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Criticizing israel has been occurring within the Jewish community for decades. Many Jews here in the USA have been against israel since inception.
I've heard it too. But it's been circumspect, ie, criticizing
the results of oppression, but not criticizing Israel itself.
I hope this is changing.
Now that is occurring as the US population is tired of war mongering.
To be tired of it isn't useful if they
still tolerate human rights violations
by an ally.
What HAMAS did was not just wrong, it was stupid.
"Stupid" would depend upon their goals.
In another post I covered how it could
be the opposite.
This might not be obvious because Hamas
has different values about sacrificing innocent
lives for political goals.
If israel was put in check a long time ago, perhaps the children of the dead palestinians could have had a chance to grow out of their hatred.
Not much chance while these children see
Israel killing their family members recklessly
in pursuit (ostensibly) of Hamas.
Israel teaches hate & vengeance to these kids
& to their own.
But now settlers from all over the world have created terrorist groups within Israel boldly attacking anything that is not supporting the pursuit of that mount.
Aye.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The problem is that "the Palestinians" don't have a legal voice except Hamas. You may not like Hamas but on the international political stage they are "the Palestinians", the only entity the UN can converse with. Disregarding that would set a precedent that would allow, even demand, that the UN intervenes in every conflict, nullifying all local authority. It would make the UN the global government and police.
I'm not categorically against a global government, it would help many of our problems but such a government has to formed legally not by self declaration.
So Hamas has the perfect scam going... But let's blame it all on Israel? bull****.

(not a response to your comment, just a general feeling I have)
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Is Hamas so stupid? They pulled off a massive attack
that caught the vaunted Israeli security machine off guard.
They've made Israel's human rights violations prominent
on the world stage as never before. Criticizing Israel is
becoming more accepted than ever before. US hypocrisy
is becoming a political problem here. Western military
resources are being diverted from other hot spots.

I'm not saying they did the right thing. Much death &
destruction is a high price to pay. So stupidity is the
wrong assumption. The cost & goals should be
challenged.
I wouldn't call Hamas stupid. I think the better word to describe them is evil.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Is Hamas so stupid? They pulled off a massive attack
that caught the vaunted Israeli security machine off guard.
They've made Israel's human rights violations prominent
on the world stage as never before. Criticizing Israel is
becoming more accepted than ever before. US hypocrisy
is becoming a political problem here. Western military
resources are being diverted from other hot spots.

I'm not saying they did the right thing. Much death &
destruction is a high price to pay. So stupidity is the
wrong assumption. The cost & goals should be
challenged.

I see Hamas as acting stupid because of the very recent example set by Russia.

What did Russia show to the rest of the world?
That the current international political climate is to stay away from direct confrontation in someone else's war.

Add to that a terrorist attack, and there it is... the ideal circumstances to start nuking and invading.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sorry, the settlers have been attacking palestinians constantly since they began moving into the west bank.
You have it backwards. HAMAS has been quiet since 2009 and the israeli nut cases have been terrorizing Palestinians ever since.
We were discussing Gaza, not Judea and Samaria, which is the proper name for what you call the "West Bank". Hamas control there, it only controls Gaza. The evidence is clear that Israel has not been operating in Gaza from 2009 until now. And the evidence shows repeated Hamas attacks on Israel from Gaza including the most recent one that precipitated this newest conflict.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But you accept Israeli figures without question?
I don't have to. Israel allows independent observers to verify their numbers. Hamas does not. Hamas also has a history of mis-reporting such numbers.
You quickly believe the "beheaded baby" claim?
What makes you say that?
Even though Israel has no reporters in Gaza?
Hamas doesn't let anyone report freely from Gaza. Israel lets reporters work freely in Israel.
Nay, you are in denial.
Observing the massive destruction in Gaza
actually makes the 10K figure look lNot ow.
So you say without any substantiation.
But unlike Israel, which names the victims
& kidnapped, publishing them all over,
Palestinians die in anonymity, other than
the few with western connections, eg, dead
family members of news reporters.
Not according to Hamas officials. What is Gaza's Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war's death toll?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
This is another example of how religion drives &
affects every aspect of this conflict. The Jewish
State expects that their Muslim problem, ie, the
Palestinians, should be solved by Muslim countries.
Here we have again much hypocrisy on both sides. The status of Palestine, autonomous but not a country, makes it easy for Israel to say that it isn't their problem and for Israel's distractors claim that it is an internal problem of Israel.
And it underlines the proxy war character of the conflict as foreign interests are willing to support Palestine militarily but refuse to take in refugees or help ẃith infrastructur.

The question is what this conflict is. Is it an internal conflict? Is Hamas "only" a terrorist organisation? Do international laws like the Geneva Convention apply, can Israel be called an apartheid regime?
Israel takes no responsibility for the problems it
causes, & for implementing solutions.
Terrorism often has the effect that it leads to overreactions. We know that since Baader-Meinhof and speaking of overreactions, the USA didn't exactly act cool headed after 9/11.
That shall in no way excuse human rights violations, just explain them.
But, yes, I agree (and I think I said it before) that Israel has as much interest in ending the conflict as Hamas has. They are now in a position where they can force a solution but they don't seem to want to make that move.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I do recognise that and I think it would be in the interest of Israel to let them go to a country that is willing to take them in. Iran?
But Palestinians think that their country is on the West Bank and in Gaza, Heyo.
Maybe some Palestinians would be pleased to go to Iran, the West or some other lands, but what about those who want to live in Israel/Gaza?
To clear Muslims out of Israel and Gaza whose ancestors have always lived there reminds me of what happened to some North American Indians, or Australian aborigines.

I don't think that the World will think much of such ideas.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I see Hamas as acting stupid because of the very recent example set by Russia.

What did Russia show to the rest of the world?
That the current international political climate is to stay away from direct confrontation in someone else's war.

Add to that a terrorist attack, and there it is... the ideal circumstances to start nuking and invading.
Russia's stupidity was to completely mis-read
the military situation, ie, its own weakness, &
Ukraine's resolve. The huge death toll on
both sides speaks of Russia's morality rather
than stupidity.

But Russia's plan to take land from neighbors
in serial fashion had been working for them.
It might still if Republicans have their way,
& hand Ukraine to Putin. This would signal
a clear path to take over Moldova & others.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't have to. Israel allows independent observers to verify their numbers. Hamas does not. Hamas also has a history of mis-reporting such numbers.
Israel has no reporters in Gaza.
Of course, you could deny this because BBC is my source.
What makes you say that?
Israel made the claim.
Hamas doesn't let anyone report freely from Gaza. Israel lets reporters work freely in Israel.
Evidence of this?
So you say without any substantiation.
What news sources do you use who
show that devastation & death aren't
massive in Gaza.
I see numerous neighborhoods leveled,
& interviews with people who lost their
families.
Your link doesn't support your challenge
to the latest claimed death toll of 10,000+.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
So Hamas has the perfect scam going... But let's blame it all on Israel? bull****.

(not a response to your comment, just a general feeling I have)
Antisemites can always rely on the double standard, but this time the Hamas monsters went too far! They were counting on more support from Iran and Hezbollah and underestimated Israels response!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Here we have again much hypocrisy on both sides. The status of Palestine, autonomous but not a country, makes it easy for Israel to say that it isn't their problem and for Israel's distractors claim that it is an internal problem of Israel.
And it underlines the proxy war character of the conflict as foreign interests are willing to support Palestine militarily but refuse to take in refugees or help ẃith infrastructur.
The term "proxy war" wouldn't apply to western
countries, who simply support Israel & everything
it does. However, it could apply to Mideast
countries, if they support Hamas as an indirect
on Israel.
The question is what this conflict is. Is it an internal conflict? Is Hamas "only" a terrorist organisation?
Hamas has many roles, eg, military, health care,
administration. It functions as a quasi-government.
Do international laws like the Geneva Convention apply, can Israel be called an apartheid regime?
Yes, per various organizations....
Israel and apartheid - Wikipedia
Terrorism often has the effect that it leads to overreactions. We know that since Baader-Meinhof and speaking of overreactions, the USA didn't exactly act cool headed after 9/11.
That shall in no way excuse human rights violations, just explain them.
But, yes, I agree (and I think I said it before) that Israel has as much interest in ending the conflict as Hamas has. They are now in a position where they can force a solution but they don't seem to want to make that move.
How it should end looks to lack disagreement.
I expect Israel to let its settlers replace Palestinians
in Gaza. Any Palestinians who remain would be
subject to tacitly approved settler violence &
theft, ultimately making Gaza part of Israel.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Russia's stupidity was to completely mis-read
the military situation, ie, its own weakness, &
Ukraine's resolve. The huge death toll on
both sides speaks of Russia's morality rather
than stupidity.

But Russia's plan to take land from neighbors
in serial fashion had been working for them.
It might still if Republicans have their way,
& hand Ukraine to Putin. This would signal
a clear path to take over Moldova & others.

I didn't call Russia stupid though.

Imagine you were in charge of Ukraine just before the war with Russia started. Wouldn't it be stupid to perform a terrorist act against Russia? Wouldn't it be even more stupid if Russia had the US an ally?

Now replace the word 'Ukraine' with 'Gaza strip' and 'Russia' with 'Israel'.
 
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