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Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I said that the NT applies prophecies to Jesus and Baha'u'llah/Baha'i says they are about Baha'u'llah. Eg that the one who sits on the throne of David forever is Baha'u'llah in Isa 9:6,7. That the one who is given a Kingdom that will not pass away and will rule forever (Dan 7:13,14) is Baha'u'llah. (see Luke 1:32 where it says it is Jesus who is the one who sits on the throne of David forever and that His Kingdom will not pass away).
That Baha'u'llah is the one spoken of in Isa 53 when the NT says it applies to Jesus. (see Acts 8:26-40)
That Baha'u'llah is the Branch from Jesse (Isa 11) which is Jesus in the NT (Romans 15:12 etc)
And no doubt there are others. And there are also things associated with these identities, things which these identities will do which Baha'u'llah wants for himself but which have also gone to Jesus in the NT because the NT identifies Jesus as the one prophesied about in those places.
They identify Jesus to YOU, but they identify Baha’u’llah to ME.

Please tell me why it matters who applies which prophecies to who? Do you see any other Christians talking about this?

Baha’u’llah was either who he claimed to be or not. That is the bottom line. You can believe what you believe about them applying to Jesus and I can believe what I believe about then applying to Baha’u’llah, but what we believe will not change reality. If God sent Baha’u’llah He did, and there is nothing you can do about it, and if not, then you have nothing to worry about.

The prophecies are the least of your problems because your interpreting them they way you believe they should be interpreted won’t get rid of the Baha’i Faith.

It is said that Queen Victoria, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her by Baha'u'llah, remarked: "If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm." (pdc 65) (18:49)
From: 2nd Coming of Christ by David Yamartino
I don't need to worry about prophecies that Jesus has not fulfilled yet because He has not come back yet to fulfil them.
But you cannot count them as fulfilled until Jesus comes back and fulfilled them. That is like me writing checks on a bank account that has no money in it hoping someone is going to come along and deposit money into my account before the checks bounce.
The Messiah died and rose again and is sitting at the right hand of God till all His enemies are placed under His feet. (Psalm 110 and applied to Jesus by Jesus (Matt 22:24) and others in the epistles and Acts etc) and will return to fulfil everything.
If you are so sure of that then why are we still having this conversation? Are you trying to convince the people on the forum? Because by now you know you are not going to convince me.
It is Baha'i and you who should be worried about those prophecies that Jesus has not yet fulfilled because Baha'u'llah came and went and not one of them was fulfilled.
No Baha’is are a bit worried. Baha’u’llah came and went and all the prophecies related to the return of Christ and the Messiah have all been fulfilled.

William Sears, Thief in the Night

As I said in a previous post, Baha’u’llah was not slated by God to fulfill the Messianic prophecies Himself, and no scriptures say that is what would happen.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
No, it is certainly Jesus who said that.

So with your interpretation you are denying that anyone could come back to get the disciples Jesus was speaking to. You are again denying the Bible,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is what Baha'is do. Jesus is returning to raise the dead and take His disciples with Him.
You are again misinterpreting the Bible, which is what Christians do. Jesus is not returning to raise the dead and take His disciples with Him because people who have been dead for 2000 years do not rise from the dead. That belief is based upon a gross misinterpretation of the Bible.

So you believe that the disciples are just going to rise out of their graves and Jesus is going to carry them through the air to heaven. It is really hard to believe people believe such things.

I do not know what this verse means and neither does any Christian. I surmise it means that the Spirit of Jesus would come back so the disciples could be with Jesus in heaven, since that is where they are. Only their bodies are buried under the ground; their souls have long departed.
Rev 1:5-8 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
1Thess 3:12 And may the Lord cause you to increase and overflow with love for one another and for everyone else, just as our love for you overflows, 13 so that He may establish your hearts in blamelessness and holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
2Thess 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels
Matt 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations:
Luke 9:22“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
etc etc
I believe that ALL of those verses refer to Baha’u’llah who was the return of the Son of Man.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It means that the people of earth are left without a Messenger for hundreds or even thousands of years.
They are not left without a Messenger because the Messenger left His teachings and laws for people to follow.
They should have added "as long as you understand the writings the way Baha'u'llah tells you to understand them".
Baha’u’llah does not tell us to do anything; we choose to read what He wrote and understand it as we understand it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The passages tell us that the Holy Spirit is the Paraclete and also is the Spirit of Truth and you say that the Spirit of Truth brings the Holy Spirit. Those 2 things contradict each other,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so your interpretation (which is no more than a claim by Baha'u'llah, contradicts the Bible)
No, the verses do not say that the Holy Spirit is the Paraclete. They say that the Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


The Father sent the Holy Ghost to Baha’u’llah, just like the Father sent the Holy Ghost to Jesus. Jesus and Baha’u’llah both brought the Holy Ghost to humanity, and that is what they are referred to as Comforters, since the Holy Ghost comforts people.

Jesus was the Comforter; Baha’u’llah was another Comforter and the Spirit of truth. These are titles given to them just like Son of Man is a title, since it represents the perfect humanity Jesus represented.

John 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I can have it that way if that is what is taught in the New Testament. From the time of Jesus is the beginning of the last days. It does not matter how long it goes, it is an era.
Adam, the beginning of the first days was thousands of years before Jesus and the middle days were thousands of years in the middle.
If you want to say that the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2 should not be there to describe the events of Pentecost then that is just a denial of the New Testament teachings, for the sake of Baha'u'llah.
But it is not taught that way in the New Testament. All Christians know that the the Day of Pentecost was a specific day and it does not extend into the last days. You are grasping at straws.

Pentecost. In the New Testament, the day that the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples of Jesus. Pentecost is the Greek name for Shavuot, the spring harvest festival of the Israelites, which was going on when the Holy Spirit came.

Pentecost | Definition of Pentecost at Dictionary.com
If you want to say that the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2 should be there to describe the events of Pentecost then that is just a denial of the New Testament teachings, for the sake of Jesus. No Christian will ever agree with you.
Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have this:

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

God poured His Spirit out on the Day of Pentecost and then it was prophesied that God would pour His Spirit out AGAIN in the last days, and that is exactly what happened when God sent Baha’u’llah, who was the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth.
The thing is that my interpretation is an interpretation. I say things like "This sentence says that and that means that this other sentence means that and that means that............." You cannot do that and all you can do is say "Baha'u'llah says he is the Spirit of Truth so that is what it means". It is not an interpretation, it is a claim only.
But to do it again.
Don’t try to pull that. You are misrepresenting me. I have been explaining what I believe the verses mean to you for six years, my interpretation of the verses -- and I never said “Baha'u'llah says he is the Spirit of Truth so that is what it means". That is so dishonest. You are getting really desperate aren’t you?
The Holy Spirit is the Advocate and is the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth will be with and in the disciples Jesus was speaking with. The Advocate was to remind Jesus disciples what Jesus had told them. (no good reminding people who had not heard Jesus). The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost so the Advocate and the Spirit of Truth also came to be with and in the disciples and to remind them of Jesus words.
Nothing said there about the Spirit of Truth bringing the Holy Spirit.
Who is the Baha'u'llah in? right nobody, therefore he is not the Spirit of Truth.
No, the Advocate and the Spirit of Truth are titles of Baha’u’llah who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Advocate (Baha’u’llah) came to remind humanity what Jesus had told them since Christians had all but forgotten all of Jesus teachings since they believe instead in Christians doctrines like the bodily resurrection that avail them nothing at all. Traditional God sent Baha’u’llah with the Holy Spirit because a disembodied Holy Spirit floating around I the air does not do anything, nor does it live inside of Christians doing all the things that Jesus promised the Advocate/Comforter would do:

The Church misled Christians into believing that the Comforter and Spirit of truth are the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to live inside of them, but anyone can figure out that a spirit living inside of people cannot DO any of the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a man could do those things:
  • Teach you all things
  • Call to remembrance what Jesus said
  • Testify of Jesus
  • Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
  • Guide you into all truth
  • Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
  • Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
Baha’u’llah did all these things and as a result of His revelation the world will be reproved the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. No spirit living inside of Christians is going to do this.
No I was not trying to say that Jesus says He would return in the same body, I was just showing that Jesus said that He would return.
No I doubt that Jesus was delayed in traffic, He is probably just waiting for all the people who are going to, to come to Him.
If Jesus was not going to return in the same body, what body was he going to return in?

There aren’t going to be many more Christians hopping on board, in fact, people are hoping off board, so Jesus may as well get the show on the road before there is nobody to come to. Christianly is not growing very fast and it will soon be overtaken by Islam.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia
So does that (Acts 1:9-11) mean that Jesus who was in heaven as a spirit, left heaven and came back to earth as Baha'u'llah? OR does that mean that the Christ Spirit came while Jesus remained in heaven, to be with Baha'u'llah as the Christ Spirit in him? OR what does it mean exactly?
It means that the Christ Spirit came while Jesus remained in heaven to be with Baha'u'llah and God (and all the other Messengers of God who ever lived).

What made Jesus the Christ was the Christ Spirit, not His body. After Jesus died He is still Jesus in heaven because He has an individual soul that is eternal and distinct from any other human.

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.................

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”


Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152
It does not really matter where the throne is or where it is moved to,,,,,,,,,,,,,it is Jesus who is sitting on it and is King.
There is no physical throne where a King sits. Throne is figurative for ruling with great power. Jesus is ruling in heaven; Baha’u’llah sat in the throne of David on earth because he brought the Most Great law.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Numbers 20:2-13 Moses lack of trust in God and hitting the rock twice instead of speaking to it was seen as sin by God and Moses was punished for it. (see also Deut 32:48-52)
God was also unhappy with Moses for not circumcision his son after Moses call at the burning bush.(Ex 4:24-26) He was also angry at Moses when Moses did not want to go to Pharaoh and God had to send Aaron along with him.(Ex 4:14)
Adam sinned when he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil when God had told him not to. For this he was sentenced to death and kicked out of Eden etc.
Moses did some bad things but that does not mean God considered Moses a sinner. As for Adam and Eve, Baha’is do not believe those were real people, but rather that was just an allegorical story. It is not only Baha’is who believe it is an allegory, many people believe that, even some Christians.
Only the Messiah, an Israelite from the tribe of Judah and with other qualifications and ordained and sent by God could do the work necessary to obtain forgiveness and bring salvation to both Jews and Gentiles.
True, but only Baha’u’llah could bring salvation to all of humanity.

“Considering this most mighty enterprise, it beseemeth them that love Him to gird up the loins of their endeavor, and to fix their thoughts on whatever will ensure the victory of the cause of God, rather than commit vile and contemptible deeds. Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243
You should avail yourself of the eternal covenant words of Jesus and believe them.
I avail myself of the words of Jesus and believe them, and no, they do not contradict the words of Baha’u’llah.
Baha'u'llah was not made a sin offering (a blood sacrifice of an animal according to the Law of Moses, for covering of sin, and which pointed to the sacrifice that was the perfect one which brought forgiveness and took away sin guilt forever) and did not pour out his life unto death. Baha'u'llah died of a fever.
Why would Baha’u’llah have to do what Jesus already did? Baha’u’llah had different work to do. Baha’u’llah suffered and sacrificed for 40 years; it was not His mission for Him to die before he could write His 15,000, Tablets which would be necessary to guide mankind for at least the next 1000 years. However, the Bab was martyred after only a six year mission, similar to Jesus.

Jesus had no children so He could not have fulfilled Isaiah 53:10. Baha’u’llah had children so Isa 53:10 is about Baha’u’llah.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own.
The reason He was not in His grave is because He rose bodily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but you deny that bit of the story.
You cannot have it both ways. If Jesus was resurrected He was not buried in His grave so He could not have fulfilled Isaiah 53:9. If Jesus was buried in His grave then His body is dead so Jesus can never return in the same body.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but it's no biggie. It's a different religion. When Christians claim that it's the same religion and we Jews are just doing it wrong... that's where quotes and context become important to me.

Otherwise, c'est la vie.

Hi,
It might seem like a different religion. But it involves the same God. It is actually the New Covenant that God foretold about in the book of Jeremiah. So of course things would be different in a new covenant.
However the main stream belief in the Trinity is not correct.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Next problem... if we go back to the start of this thread, the NT has some questionable "fulfilled" prophecies. Baha'is can't reject Jesus, so how do you explain those? Most of the ones I question are from Matthew. I think I already asked Adrian, but maybe you could comment on them too, or remind me of what you said if you already have. Matthew says, I'm going to paraphrase, Jesus and the family goes to Egypt to fulfill "out of Egypt I called my son," He has Ramah crying because her children are gone... They were taken into captivity... as a fulfillment of Herod's men killing little boys in Bethlehem... an event that no one else mentions. He has Jesus being called a "Nazarene", which refers to vows being taken and has nothing to do with where you live... But Matthew calls him that because his family lives in Nazareth. These are just little prophecies, but they are very arguably false. Probably not a detail that comes up often for Baha'is to have to explain, but it's very important, because without a good explanation, we have a gospel writer making up false prophecies. Pull your symbolic magic Tony and tell me what's up with this.

Sorry CG, looked quickly for them but 6 pages in still no luck. Hopefully I will find more time in a month or so, at least my study should have been completed.

Regards Tony
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Hi,
It might seem like a different religion. But it involves the same God. It is actually the New Covenant that God foretold about in the book of Jeremiah. So of course things would be different in a new covenant.
However the main stream belief in the Trinity is not correct.
What's your opinion of the Book of John?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Sorry CG, looked quickly for them but 6 pages in still no luck. Hopefully I will find more time in a month or so, at least my study should have been completed.

Regards Tony
Don't worry about because I'm sure the only Baha'i answer would be to come up with a symbolic meaning. They are too vague and out of context to have a literal fulfillment.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah does more discrediting of Jesus that telling us what the Bible tells of Jesus.
We already talked about the problems with started Daniel's 2300 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. The questions about Micah are... Was Teheran within the Assyrian Empire and is it "he" or "they" will come from there. I've asked a couple Baha'is their interpretations about the Book of Revelation. Abdul Baha' talks about a couple of the chapters. He says the Three Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Does the context of what goes on in those chapters fit? I have my doubts. The Two Witnesses his says are Muhammad and Ali. This is one where they use the 1260 days and turn them into lunar years and start it with the Hegira in 621AD and get to 1844. I've mentioned before, all time references from there on that can be turned into 1260 years are turned into 1260 years and all are made to start at 621AD. Even though none of them have any connection to 621AD. As one beast is said to be the Umayyad dynasty which started in 661AD until 750AD. Then another Umayyad leader went from 756AD to 1031AD. To "fulfill" the prophecy Baha'is count the 1260 days/years from 621AD and end in 1844. Didn't happen. Plus, they make the "666" a prophecy of the date that the Umayyads started, which was 661. So Baha'is add 5 years to this and say that Jesus was born approximately 4 or 5 years before year "0".

Then I went through and listed all the references to the "Lamb" or the "Lamb that was Slain." Nothing "official" just a couple of Baha'is had an opinion... Since Jesus was not "slain" but "crucified" the Lamb that was slain is The Bab, who was shot or "slain" by a firing squad. But does the Lamb that was slain describe The Bab? Does the Lamb describe The Bab or Baha'u'llah? No. It most closely describes Jesus. And, the Lamb is the main character and the one who is returning in Revelation. And, as you have shown, Revelation mentions Jesus by name a couple of times.

Next issue, and I keep asking this, do the tribulations continue after "The Christ" returns? No. The Holy City and all the good stuff happens and the evil one and the evil doers are cast into a lake of fire or abyss or something. What Baha'is do have is the Greek word used for Lamb in Revelation is different than the Lamb in the gospels. Therefore, one Baha'is concluded, this is a different Lamb... or is referring to Baha'u'llah. Anyway, why wouldn't Baha'u'llah claimed to be the "Lamb"? Instead, Abdul Baha says Baha'u'llah is the third "Woe"? Also, the "new name" is supposedly Baha'u'llah... and a couple of times it says "the Glory of God" so naturally they claim those verses as proof. So who is this Lamb? The Bab? Baha'u'llah? Muhammad? Or, Jesus?

Rev 5 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain... the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb... saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain... “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain"... “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

Rev 6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. I looked, a white horse! When the Lamb opened the second seal, another horse came out, a fiery red one. When the Lamb opened the third seal, I looked, and there before me was a black horse! When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, there before me was a pale horse! When he opened the fifth seal... those who had been slain because of the word of God... called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. Then the kings of the earth... and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves... They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Rev 7 I saw another angel... He called out... put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. I looked... a great multitude... standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They... cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple... ‘Never again will they hunger... For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd.

Rev 12 “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony...

Rev 13 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Rev 14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury... They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Rev 15 I saw... seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed... those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb...

Rev 17 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom... They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Rev 19 I heard... a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God... He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.” Let us rejoice and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready... Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 20 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True... He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God... On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it... and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21 “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb"... he... showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Rev 22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb... The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. “Look, I am coming soon! ...I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony... Yes, I am coming soon."
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is one where they use the 1260 days and turn them into lunar years and start it with the Hegira in 621AD and get to 1844.

I do not see it that way at all. The prophecy is fulfilled in the year AH1260 which is AD1844 and it is AD1844 that the Biblical sums add up to.

The prophecy to me is saying the Two Witnesses had power for those 1260 years.

The year AH1260, is simply AD1844. I do not need to calculate 1260.

Makes sense that the Bible in the OT shows us 1844 and mentions 1260 as Christ was still to come. Then Revelation tells us of 1260 as Islam now has control over the Holy Land.

There is no clearer Prophecy for any Messenger. And it shows the OT foretold of Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

IMHO

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So who is this Lamb? The Bab? Baha'u'llah? Muhammad? Or, Jesus?

The Key here is not to read prophecy as a chronological unfolding from verse to verse. Revelation appears to come in blocks, not necessarily joined to each other in this Material world. Some short verses span all time, in the same verse one can see mention to prior messages and also mention of messages to come.

Like verse 14 in some places refers to Christ but is applicable to the Bab

Then by verse 17 we are talking about Muhammad and his dispensation.

I see these visions are timeless and as these visions come from One source, there is no demarcation of times. In a way, each passage applies to all God's Revelations as the first is the last and the last is the first, not subject to this world of time.

We read them trying to put them to a time line.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I do not see it that way at all. The prophecy is fulfilled in the year AH1260 which is AD1844 and it is AD1844 that the Biblical sums add up to.

The prophecy to me is saying the Two Witnesses had power for those 1260 years.

The year AH1260, is simply AD1844. I do not need to calculate 1260.

Makes sense that the Bible in the OT shows us 1844 and mentions 1260 as Christ was still to come. Then Revelation tells us of 1260 as Islam now has control over the Holy Land.

There is no clearer Prophecy for any Messenger. And it shows the OT foretold of Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

IMHO

Regards Tony
The Gentiles will trample on the holy city for 42 months, which is converted to 1260 years. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days. Then they are killed. For three and a half days their bodies sit in the street. After the three and a half days they come alive. So they already did something for 1260 days, which gets turned into 1260 years. They are killed and their bodies sit in the street for 31/2 days, which is converted to 1260 years. So that should be 2520 years? But no. All cover the same time period from 621AD to 1844. Plus, all that took place during the 2nd Woe, which is supposedly The Bab.

Next... A woman gives birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And she flees into the wilderness for 1,260 days, which is converted to 1260 years. Later the woman is taken again for a time, times and half a time, to be kept out of the serpent’s reach. This is also converted to 1260 years. After this a beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months, which is converted to 1260 years.

All of these also... start with the Hegira in 621AD and end in 1844. One or two might be close enough to make sense... but, what is it? Six times? No, the worst being the Beast, who Baha'is say is the Umayyads. They did not start in 621AD and they didn't end in 1844. That's a big stretch to make that one fit. But I know you do. And Baha'is seem perfectly content to believe it. And that's what is so troubling.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Key here is not to read prophecy as a chronological unfolding from verse to verse. Revelation appears to come in blocks, not necessarily joined to each other in this Material world. Some short verses span all time, in the same verse one can see mention to prior messages and also mention of messages to come.

Like verse 14 in some places refers to Christ but is applicable to the Bab

Then by verse 17 we are talking about Muhammad and his dispensation.

I see these visions are timeless and as these visions come from One source, there is no demarcation of times. In a way, each passage applies to all God's Revelations as the first is the last and the last is the first, not subject to this world of time.

We read them trying to put them to a time line.

Regards Tony
Still who is the Lamb? The Bab? Muhammad? Jesus? No, Baha'is should have no question, and Baha'u'llah should have made it clear, if he is the return of Christ, he has to be the Lamb.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Gentiles will trample on the holy city for 42 months, which is converted to 1260 years. The two witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days. Then they are killed. For three and a half days their bodies sit in the street. After the three and a half days they come alive. So they already did something for 1260 days, which gets turned into 1260 years. They are killed and their bodies sit in the street for 31/2 days, which is converted to 1260 years. So that should be 2520 years? But no. All cover the same time period from 621AD to 1844. Plus, all that took place during the 2nd Woe, which is supposedly The Bab.

Next... A woman gives birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And she flees into the wilderness for 1,260 days, which is converted to 1260 years. Later the woman is taken again for a time, times and half a time, to be kept out of the serpent’s reach. This is also converted to 1260 years. After this a beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months, which is converted to 1260 years.

All of these also... start with the Hegira in 621AD and end in 1844. One or two might be close enough to make sense... but, what is it? Six times? No, the worst being the Beast, who Baha'is say is the Umayyads. They did not start in 621AD and they didn't end in 1844. That's a big stretch to make that one fit. But I know you do. And Baha'is seem perfectly content to believe it. And that's what is so troubling.

You choose to make it complicated, which it is not. As I have have explained that in detail to you before, I do wonder why you jumble it back up.

All those events happen in the 1260 years, the time allotted to the Islamic Faith.

It was the year 1260 when the Bab brought the New Message, which closed the given 1260 years of prophecy. That was also 1844 that was calculated by Biblical Scholars prior to the Bab's declaration.

The Bible had told us about the year 1260 basically, not complicated.

Regards Tony
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Reply to post 796
I do believe it ends with the next guy. So the teachings that Jesus brought to uplift humanity to the next level ended with Muhammad. Where was Christianity in 621AD? Where was the other major religions? All of them continued and kept spreading and keep evolving. Of course the major change in Christianity was the Protestant Reformation. That had a huge influenced on the advancement of civilization. Some good some bad, depending on how a person looks at it.

Nevertheless it seems to be in Baha'i that Mohammad and The Bab are overlooked in preference to Baha'u'llah as being the return of Jesus, and prophecies about the return are related to Baha'u'llah. I don't really know why this is done unless it is just that it looks as if more of the prophecies can be said to fit Baha'u'llah. (eg they say that the gospel had been preached to the whole world by 1844 and the 1260, 1290 day prophecies can be made to sort of fit and a couple of natural disasters can be said to be part of the prophecies eg the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 etc)
But there may be other reasons which I don't know about.

That's the tough one, because it is easy to say that Christians do the same thing with Judaism. With Baha'is they have each messenger bring a new "pure" message from God and then it gets mangled by the followers. But when it comes to Christianity, there is no "pure" message. The words of Jesus are told to us by his followers, so they can always say, as some of them do, "Well, Jesus never said he was coming back". But his followers said that he implied it or did say it. But they can always deny those verses and go back again and again to... "It is finished" or "The flesh amounts to nothing."

I don't see it as a tough one even though some prophecies Christians use from to OT about Jesus can be hard to say are definitely prophecies about the Messiah. The overall picture in prophecy is there and can legitimately be read in the OT as relating to the Messiah and what Jesus did.
But yes the Baha'is do have to resort to denying even what are in the gospels as the plain words of Jesus (eg I will come back John 14:3) and to twist other things that Jesus said to supposedly mean that Jesus would not come back. That is just the fruit of the false Prophet Baha'u'llah. To be a Baha'i means to need to deny the Bible. That is a sign of a false prophet.

Yeah, we're all learning and changing. I don't imagine that most Christians would want to admit that they are "blinded" by their beliefs. It's obvious to those of us that don't believe. And that goes for the Baha'i Faith too. Like Bird123 was saying that all religions put their followers into a box of beliefs. The good part of it is that it gets people to try and be humble and nice. The bad part of it is that some people get too dogmatic about their beliefs and won't listen to what and why others believe something different.

I am like that at times and it is probably because at times it seems obvious to me and I cannot see why others can't see it and frustration can set in.

Anyway, by admitting you might be blind at times is impressive. That shows me a lot about your character. I'm learning a lot from you and have great respect for you.

I'm impressed with what others on this forum know that I don't (including you) and sometimes I wonder why I am here, since I don't know that much really.
But if you ask my wife you might get a different idea about my character.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is just the fruit of the false Prophet Baha'u'llah. To be a Baha'i means to need to deny the Bible. That is a sign of a false prophet.

Can you see your arguments were used against Jesus and it is written what happened to those that used those arguments against Jesus!

Judgement made without knowledge is covered in Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Regards Tony
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Can you see your arguments were used against Jesus and it is written what happened to those that used those arguments against Jesus!

Judgement made without knowledge is covered in Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Regards Tony

I think I can see the problems with some of the prophecies that the New Testament writers use from the OT and apply to Jesus. It is hard to see that some of them are prophecies about the Messiah. Nevertheless what Baha'is do with the Bible is different in that they actually deny the Bible when trying to identify Baha'u'llah from it.
The claims of Christianity can legitimately be seen in the OT and in the thinking of Jews in the past. There is nothing about the claims of Baha'i which can legitimately be seen in what the Bible tells us.
 
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