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Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Nova2216

Active Member
OK. So that does make sense, considering that men preached to others. Then I definitely misunderstood what you were saying in your previous posts.

So what role then does a the Holy Spirit have in people understanding the Bible?
And can one understand the book if they are a non believer?


YES, the unbeliever can understand the bible according to (Eph.3:3,4).

That's why men are commanded to go to all the world and preach the gospel to unbelievers (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16) (2Tim.2:2).



The main role of the Holy Spirit was to bring the revelation of God to men (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13).

In the first century it was through the apostles that the Holy Spirit spoke (Mt.10:19,20).



Today we have the completed revelation of God (the bible).

Today we have all things pertaining to life and godliness contained in the bible according to (2Peter 1:3) (2Tim.3:14-17).

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

All men need to do is read the word of God to understand it (Eph.3:3,4) (2Tim.2:15).


The Holy Spirit does nothing TO US today.

The Holy Spirit does things FOR US according to (Rom.8:26).


¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


Thanks
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
YES, the unbeliever can understand the bible according to (Eph.3:3,4).

That's why men are commanded to go to all the world and preach the gospel to unbelievers (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16) (2Tim.2:2).



The main role of the Holy Spirit was to bring the revelation of God to men (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13).

In the first century it was through the apostles that the Holy Spirit spoke (Mt.10:19,20).



Today we have the completed revelation of God (the bible).

Today we have all things pertaining to life and godliness contained in the bible according to (2Peter 1:3) (2Tim.3:14-17).

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

All men need to do is read the word of God to understand it (Eph.3:3,4) (2Tim.2:15).


The Holy Spirit does nothing TO US today.

The Holy Spirit does things FOR US according to (Rom.8:26).


¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


Thanks

is it then implied?......a definitive understanding

shared

identical
 

Nova2216

Active Member
is it then implied?......a definitive understanding

shared

identical

According to (1Cor.1:10) and (Phil.3:16) the answer is YES.


10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


16. let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing




(1Peter 4:11) -

11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The truth is that all that is needed is the above passage for a Christian to ignore any other claim that Baha'u'llah/Baha'i makes in the Bible. But of course this is not the only passage which does the same thing, and just shows that Baha'u'llah is not whom he claims to be.

If that one passage has been interpreted wrong then this is also applicable

Matthew 7:21-23 "21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness"

Having faith in a flesh bodily reurection when Jesus also says the flesh amounts to nothing, is to me a foundation of sand.

Also Jesus offered a death and life, in Scriptures, that are obviously beyond this life. Jesus offered that a physically dead man should be buried by a spiritually dead man and to live one must be born again into faith in Christ.

Both those events happen and yet they happened while we are in the flesh.

Thus disbelief is death and Faith is life which the 2nd death (Disbelief) can not overtake. It all happens here and now. This flesh body then dies and disperses back to selments that mingle. Into other forms and the Spirit live on in death or in life and all the states in between.

@ CG Didymus thus the quandary continues. I hope in these exchanges that you do come to see that it is our choices that are making this world what it is.

We have to own up to those choices, good and bad.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No.
The real reason is because
Jesus lacked the necessary genealogical and personal traits and actions required to be the messiah
There is no new covenant, just a renewed one which changes only the transmission method, not the content
The "witness reports " along with any claim to Jesus' existence are recorded in a self-serving text which has no authority

If Christians understood that they believe in lies from "the beginning, their eyes would be opened to what the scriptures actually tell us about the Messiah and what would happen to Him. That's how I see it anyway."

The quandary is that we now Have Jesus, Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah also telling us of the One God.

Baha'u'llah clearly had a Covenant and offered to the Jews that what they await is now fulfilled.

It seems history repeats what is recorded in the Jewish scriptures about the rejection of the Prophets. That is what I see and you do not.

The quandary continues, but peace is in my heart and I learn war no more and happily pick up a plowshare to aid all humanity. I hope that helps in the future.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It certainly is true that the things that the Bible tells us the Messiah will do when He returns have not been done by Baha'u'llah.

You do realise that the argument you used on Baha'u'llah, is the one used to debunk Jesus the Christ as being the Messiah.

Jesus rose from the dead and so is still living and ruling and even if it does not look like it, He is in control and in theory will return and actually do what it says He will do. The Baha'i view is of life going on as usual indefinitely and another indefinite number of Messengers coming eventually, each with a different message for what we need to know for whatever age it is.
I expect resurrection of all people when Jesus returns and judgement to take place and peace to come to the earth and the Kingdom of God and everyone to see Jesus and etc. It's another of those things that have to be somehow ignored by Baha'is even if they do say they believe the Bible.

This resurrects the words used by all people in the past, that have rejected God's Messengers. That this sign, or that sign has not been fulfilled and that the Prophets should have done this or that. So they say, until God gives us the vision we want fulfilled, we will not beleive.

Oh God, not my will but Thy Will be Done has been forgotten. IMHO

Regards Tony
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The quandary is that we now Have Jesus, Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah also telling us of the One God.

Baha'u'llah clearly had a Covenant and offered to the Jews that what they await is now fulfilled.

It seems history repeats what is recorded in the Jewish scriptures about the rejection of the Prophets. That is what I see and you do not.

The quandary continues, but peace is in my heart and I learn war no more and happily pick up a plowshare to aid all humanity. I hope that helps in the future.

Regards Tony
It is important to note that according to Judaism, the era of prophecy ended about 300 years before the common era. So claims of "prophecy" from after that time would be rejected on their face simply because Judaism teaches that there is no more prophecy (at least not of that sort).
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to (1Cor.1:10) and (Phil.3:16) the answer is YES.


10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


16. let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing


(1Peter 4:11) -


11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;

Yet that has not happened.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is important to note that according to Judaism, the era of prophecy ended about 300 years before the common era. So claims of "prophecy" from after that time would be rejected on their face simply because Judaism teaches that there is no more prophecy (at least not of that sort).

Thank you and yes I agree some say that.

I have come to see that God does as God so Wills and what men expect will happen, or say will happen, are events as rare as the philosophers stone.

Regards Tony
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
The quandary is that we now Have Jesus, Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah also telling us of the One God.

Baha'u'llah clearly had a Covenant and offered to the Jews that what they await is now fulfilled.

It seems history repeats what is recorded in the Jewish scriptures about the rejection of the Prophets. That is what I see and you do not.

:facepalm:

Normally, I would probably leave it at that, but not today. Every now and again I need to point out just how truly rude and disrespectful you are. In your arrogance you make claims to seeing things that we Jews do not, unable to acknowledge that Jews do not simply see things differently than you, but actually may see things that you do not.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
:facepalm:

Normally, I would probably leave it at that, but not today. Every now and again I need to point out just how truly rude and disrespectful you are. In your arrogance you make claims to seeing things that we Jews do not, unable to acknowledge that Jews do not simply see things differently than you, but actually may see things that you do not.

The quandary we all face.

Personally I take no offense and wish you Well and happy in the path you have chosen.

The fact is those Messages exist and are seen to come from the same God, by many many millions of people.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
:facepalm:

Normally, I would probably leave it at that, but not today. Every now and again I need to point out just how truly rude and disrespectful you are. In your arrogance you make claims to seeing things that we Jews do not, unable to acknowledge that Jews do not simply see things differently than you, but actually may see things that you do not.

I must say though, I went back and it was indeed very badly worded and I too make a winner of your reply.

I will work on that part of myself, I was in too much of a rush this morning.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
All sort of death in the long run, and as Paul tells us, when Jesus returns some people in Christ who are still alive won't even need to die physically.
I do not believe that any BODY lives forever, but you are free to believe that if you want to because you have free will to choose what you will believe.
You must have a different God because my God says plainly that Adam sinned and that Moses sinned.

I do not have a different God, just a different religion that revealed some updates on Moses related to His alleged sin.
The covenant Jesus made with His blood was eternal and so means that no other sacrifice was needed for the forgiveness of sin and for entry into the Kingdom of God and Eternal life and receiving the promises Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth etc.
You are free to believe that if you want to because you have free will to choose what you will believe. Bear in mind however that it is a belief, not a FACT. I believe that Baha’u’llah was necessary for forgiveness of sins in THIS new age and Baha’u’llah sacrificed Himself for the sins of humanity. A sacrifice does not need to be a blood sacrifice, although the Bab willingly sacrificed His life at a very young age, just like Jesus did.

“My God, my God! If none be found to stray from Thy path, how, then, can the ensign of Thy mercy be unfurled, or the banner of Thy bountiful favor be hoisted? And if iniquity be not committed, what is it that can proclaim Thee to be the Concealer of men’s sins, the Ever-Forgiving, the Omniscient, the All-Wise? May my soul be a sacrifice to the trespasses of them that trespass against Thee, for upon such trespasses are wafted the sweet savors of the tender mercies of Thy Name, the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. May my life be laid down for the transgressions of such as transgress against Thee, for through them the breath of Thy grace and the fragrance of Thy loving-kindness are made known and diffused amongst men. May my inmost being be offered up for the sins of them that have sinned against Thee, for it is as a result of such sins that the Day Star of Thy manifold favors revealeth itself above the horizon of Thy bounty, and the clouds of Thy never-failing providence rain down their gifts upon the realities of all created things.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 310-311
To be an offering for sin relates to the Mosaic Law and the animals that were killed as sin offerings. Jesus was killed and God accepted it as a sin offering and then after He was killed He was resurrected and lives on to give His eternal life to others who then become His children,,,,,,,,,,,,and He lives in us and can see us.
It applies to Jesus and not to Baha'u'llah if understood correctly.
Also the servant on Isa 53 is an Israelite.
Again, you are free to believe that if you want to because you have free will to choose what you will believe. Bear in mind however that it is a belief, not a FACT.

Isaiah 53:10 “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.”

I believe that applies to Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was bruised and put to grief, and as noted in the passage above He made His soul an offering for sin. In addition to that, Baha’u’llah saw His seed (Abdu’l-Baha) and His days were prolonged (He lived till age 74). Jesus did not see His seed and His days were not prolonged so that verse cannot apply to Him.

To say that Jesus saw His seed because Christians are children of God and that Jesus’ days were prolonged because He was resurrected is a real stretch and just a way for you to TRY to make the verse fit Jesus when it does not fit Jesus.

The pleasure of the Lord prospered in Jesus’ hand but the pleasure of the Lord has also prospered in Baha’u’llah’s hand. Both Jesus and Baha’u’llah were bruised and put to grief and both Jesus and Baha’u’llah offered their souls for sin, but Jesus did not see His seed and His days were not prolonged.

Then of course we have all the other verses in Isaiah 53 that cannot possibly apply to Jesus but which perfectly FIT Baha’u’llah.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

For example, you cannot say that Isaiah 53:8 applies to Jesus (he was cut off out of the land of the living) unless you want to relinquish the belief in the bodily resurrection. Jesus also was not taken from prison and from judgment, but Baha’u’llah clearly was.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

If Jesus rose from the dead, Isaiah 53:9 cannot apply to Jesus, because Jesus did not make His grave anywhere, unless He was buried somewhere.

Bahá’u’lláh perfectly fulfills this prophecy because He was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.
This is about God speaking, and says that the man He appoints as His firstborn will call Him My Father, My God, the Rock my Saviour.
Psalms 89:27- 28 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Baha’u’llah made a covenant with His firstborn, Abdu’l-Baha, regarding the successorship of authority within the religion. The Covenant of Baha’u’llah stood fast with him.

Greater covenant

The greater covenant refers to the covenant made between each messenger from God, which the literature of the Baháʼí Faith name Manifestations of God, and his followers regarding the coming of the next Manifestation from God.[1] According to Baháʼu'lláh, the founder of the Baháʼí Faith, God has promised that he will send a succession of messengers that will instruct humankind.[2] In Baháʼí belief, this covenant is seen to be expressed in prophecy in the religious scripture of each religion, and each Manifestation of God, such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb,[3] and Baháʼu'lláh, prophesied the next Manifestation.[1] In return, the followers of each religion are seen to have a duty to investigate the claims of the following Manifestations.[1]

Lesser Covenant

This is the covenant that is made regarding the successorship of authority within the religion.[1] In Baháʼí belief the manner in which the Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh was clearly put forth is seen as being a fundamental defining feature of the religion and a powerful protector of the unity of the Baháʼí Faith and its adherents.[1]

Kitáb-i-ʻAhd
Baháʼu'lláh established the successorship of the Baháʼí Faith with a document called the Book of the Covenant which was written in his own hand and entrusted by him to ʻAbdu'l-Bahá before his passing.[15] In this document Baháʼu'lláh reaffirmed his mission, exhorted the peoples of the world to observe that which will elevate them and forbade conflict and contention, while clearly and emphatically placing successorship of the Faith in the hands of the Most Mighty Branch, which was a title reserved exclusively for ʻAbdu'l-Bahá.[15][16

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There is a lot of guidance like that CG, basically we are given the chance in this life to progress spiritually of our own choice and get our spiritual limbs needed in the next world.

It is such a large subject and many tangents, there is no hard and fast detail that we can say this or that will be so, or will not be so.

Regards Tony
Since Baha'is don't believe in the Christian concept of hell, I was wondering what the Baha'i Faith says happens to the wicked. Personally, I still wouldn't mind some form of reincarnation. It still allows for the soul to advance... It is just that it is by coming back to this world and not some other spiritual world.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Where is the evidence of this? when you read the religious texts themselves, they contradict each other.
The usual thing that Baha'is have told me is that... "Christians interpreted it literally. It was meant figuratively." With that a Baha'i can interpret any verse anyway they want. Plus, they can always pull the, "They weren't eyewitnesses" card and say the writings were based on oral traditions.

The scripture says:" But the temple he had spoken of was his body." That is the scripture itself. Then the rest of the narrative says that Jesus died on a cross and was resurrected. The scripture itself says this.
One contradiction that I've questioned them on is the one where they say that Abraham took Ishmael, not Isaac, to be sacrificed. For them, this is true because Baha'u'llah said it. No other proof is necessary.

You say that miracles do happen but say it is impossible for someone to be resurrected. You also do not believe that God is all powerful then because it is impossible for him to resurrect someone.
Healing crippled legs and blind eyes... cleanse lepers and brought two people that had died back to life? And Baha'is say that Jesus could not have floated off to space because that too is scientifically impossible, so then he probably couldn't have walked on water. I don't think very many, if any, Baha'is are going to say that Jesus performed any of those miracles. Yet, they believe he was born of a virgin? Oh, and another "yet"... They believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that Jesus is a manifestation?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since Baha'is don't believe in the Christian concept of hell, I was wondering what the Baha'i Faith says happens to the wicked. Personally, I still wouldn't mind some form of reincarnation. It still allows for the soul to advance... It is just that it is by coming back to this world and not some other spiritual world.

You really want to be back here :D;)

Personally, I am happy I will not be. Old bodies are not fun. :eek:;)

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
That's pretty plain.

that Jesus rose from the dead and so was confirmed by God. They believe what their religious leaders told them 2000 years ago, that the body was stolen.
And the Baha'is here on the forum say something similar... that the body was hidden and has since rotted away.

Jesus lacked the necessary genealogical and personal traits and actions required to be the messiah
Here's where Christians and Baha'is have a problem.

I just believe that we all sin and are worthy of whatever judgement God gives, in a justice sense. But also God is a God of mercy and He has given people a way to avoid that justice through Jesus.
Yes, why different than thinking a person "good" works and going to get them into the Christian concept of heaven.

Could they all have been lost, corrupted and misinterpreted to the extent claimed by Baha'i?
With the Bible Baha'i wants to change not only the details but also the overall story of the book.
I doubt it greatly. But it is an easy way to get out of contradictions.

Well it would be the gospel writers and beginners of the story that has been passed down in the Church who would be the liars and the frauds.
Yes, the writers themselves either made up false stories about Jesus or they just built their stories around some of the oral traditions that were going around. But... the apostles and other eyewitnesses were around for several years. And, if the body of Jesus was stolen and buried, those people were still around too... and never spilled the beans?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It certainly is true that the things that the Bible tells us the Messiah will do when He returns have not been done by Baha'u'llah.
Jesus rose from the dead and so is still living and ruling and even if it does not look like it, He is in control and in theory will return and actually do what it says He will do. The Baha'i view is of life going on as usual indefinitely and another indefinite number of Messengers coming eventually, each with a different message for what we need to know for whatever age it is.
I expect resurrection of all people when Jesus returns and judgement to take place and peace to come to the earth and the Kingdom of God and everyone to see Jesus and etc. It's another of those things that have to be somehow ignored by Baha'is even if they do say they believe the Bible.
I'm sure you know lots more than I do about the Bible, so maybe you can tell me... after Jesus, or The Christ, returns.. do the tribulations continue? And, do the tribulations continue because the people and the leaders of the world reject him?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
According to (1Cor.1:10) and (Phil.3:16) the answer is YES.


10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.


16. let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing




(1Peter 4:11) -


11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God;
well played
thank you

but I believe no two people will actually do as scripture implores

we humans are formed as unique individuals
and in turn we become unique spirits

but of course......that we some day walk together among the angelic
a certain amount of GRACE
may be required
 
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