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Free will?

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
The vast majority of Muslims are Muslims because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The vast majority of Christians are Christians because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The same applies to all other well established religions. Furthermore, the beliefs are sect specific. People tend to stay within the specific religious faction handed down to them by their families, and the same applies to politics and sports teams. It appears to be a tribal tendency.
The exceptions appear to be those where the individuals did not have a positive experience with their families and they tend to do the opposite of whatever their families did in most aspects of their lives. Given these facts, are we experiencing religious beliefs or simply religious indoctrinations?
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
Haven't met a religious family yet that was christian that had their kid learn a different faith other than christianity. Lots of people out there that never got a calling. They just were told to listen and follow what parents/family has to say.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'm still trying to figure out where the idea of free will is suppose to fit into it all.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
The vast majority of Muslims are Muslims because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The vast majority of Christians are Christians because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The same applies to all other well established religions.

"All others?!"

So sorry, but this is simply false!

The Baha'i Faith specifically requires parents to teach their children that ALL the great religions are legitimate and come from God! (Baha'i schools assist in this, of course. For example, when my son was six, he was already in a comparative-religion course in Baha'i school learning about the validity of the various religions.)

Then when the child reaches the Age of Maturity (15), he or she can choose between becoming a Baha'i, something else, or nothing whatever! And others--parents, siblings, friends, or whoever (we have no clergy) MAY NOT interfere in this decision!

Works great for us, and puts the lie to your "all established religions" claim above!

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
These expressions come to mind: "My parents beat the snot out of me, and I turned out okay", or, "My father was a jihadi, I am a jihadi and my children will be jihadist too".

Free will is sadly seldom exercised or even experienced. Free will would mean that an individual would be born in Saudi Arabia with the last name Saud and to not be Muslin against all family expectations or impositions. Free will would mean that an individual from a staunch Mormon family in Utah is able to see the advantages and disadvantages of his parent's religions and decides not to follow it. Free will would mean that people would be able to see the point of views of others without the prejudices of their own clan and make decisions based on the best and most logical options possible.

Free will takes courage and the individual exercising it will always face opposition and hostility from his/her clan. Most often, the individual exercising free will would have to remove him/herself physically from his/her clan, start anew elsewhere and stay away until that individual is fully developed as an individual (as opposed to an individual clan member). On his/her return, some in the old clan will acknowledge that individual’s superior maturity, and some will resent it, but all will admire it deep inside. That takes a decades, hard work, and success.

Free will is the trademark of a true leader, but true leaders are rare. Most often, most of us "follow the leader" because it is easier intellectually, emotionally, physically (some people get beaten and even killed for disobeying the clan's rules), and financially. I contend that the ones that follow the given path and take hold of the leadership of the clan are not true leaders. They are simply opportunistic predators.

The ones that started each of the religions were leaders. Their successors most often are not. In fact, the successors are the type of people who would have opposed the free thinking behaviour of those that start their own religions.

The clan does not only include your immediate family because, with the advent of television, people are indoctrinated into specific assumptions and beliefs as early as their infancy through commercials, cartoons, and most forms of "entertainment".

My experience tells me that to know my country's flaws I must listen to my countries enemies. To learn, I must listen to those with opinions different than mine, and to know my flaws, I must listen to my enemies.

When you travel around the world and realize the facts and fiction of your own upbringing, country, and other assumptions, you are exercising free will. When you travel and travelling reinforces all your previous assumptions and you return home more determined than ever that your clan is “right” and all others wrong, you are exercising the “don’t confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up” mentality.
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner
"All others?!"

So sorry, but this is simply false!

The Baha'i Faith specifically requires parents to teach their children that ALL the great religions are legitimate and come from God! (Baha'i schools assist in this, of course. For example, when my son was six, he was already in a comparative-religion course in Baha'i school learning about the validity of the various religions.)

Then when the child reaches the Age of Maturity (15), he or she can choose between becoming a Baha'i, something else, or nothing whatever! And others--parents, siblings, friends, or whoever (we have no clergy) MAY NOT interfere in this decision!

Works great for us, and puts the lie to your "all established religions" claim above!

Peace, :)

Bruce

Bruce,

I know many Bahais. Do you know many Bahais that grow up to be Muslims? Do you know many Bahais that have fond feelings towards shiite Muslims? Do you know many Bahais that marry outside of the faith without the other partner converting?...

...and yes, we all think that our religions are the most enlightened, the most logical, the most advance, and in short the best. You have actually demonstrated it. It would have been great to come in support of the Bahai religion while a Jehova's Witness, a Catholic, or a Muslim. Obviously, that is not the case here.

Have a good day.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I agree that religion is passed down from generation to generation.

But..

I can approach your arguments in three fronts:

1) As Spirits we may have the option to opt for what kind of religion/family you are gonna live in when you are born into this world. Meaning you have free will to pick any you want even before you are born!

2) Even after you are born into this world, many people ( although surely not everyone ) will come into contact with other religions. We DO have the free choice to follow a different religion when this situation happens. It has nothing to do with free will If you are going to have to give up other things to follow this new religion. It is just a consequence of your act, or would you expect that every action ,that is not necessarily evil, to bring perfectly good ( according to your opinion ) reactions?

3) Free will means the freedom to pick any choice available. Not to be able to pick every choice. For example, I can't fly by myself, I don't have option to fly even though the birds have it. As you see, just because i don't have the option to fly, it doesn't mean i don't have free will. So , in the case of a person that never came into contact with any other religion ( and given that the fact you may not believe in the possibility of my [1] argument ), this person still has free will even if it can't pick a new religion.
 
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People tend to stay within the specific religious faction handed down to them by their families, and the same applies to politics and sports teams. It appears to be a tribal tendency.

are we experiencing religious beliefs or simply religious indoctrinations?


I agree with you that religion doctrines are passed down and FORCED on children by their parents/grand parents. I think the only time it is not, is when there is no religious idolitry in the family environment.

Are they beliefs or indoctrinations... I see them as indoctrinations that become artificial beleifs because they are formed by members being raised in "group thinking". It is a very hard cycle to break out of.
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
I agree that religion is passed down from generation to generation.

But..

I can approach your arguments in three fronts:

1) As Spirits we may have the option to opt for what kind of religion/family you are gonna live in when you are born into this world. Meaning you have free will to pick any you want even before you are born!
How the heck can you pick? What if you get adopted? Do you get to pick the parents or do they pick you? FAIL.

2) Even after you are born into this world, many people ( although surely not everyone ) will come into contact with other religions. We DO have the free choice to follow a different religion when this situation happens. It has nothing to do with free will If you are going to have to give up other things to follow this new religion. It is just a consequence of your act, or would you expect that every action ,that is not necessarily evil, to bring perfectly good ( according to your opinion ) reactions?
How about: put all religions in front of me and let me pick without any outside interference or coddling. That would be free will.

3) Free will means the freedom to pick any choice available. Not to be able to pick every choice. For example, I can't fly by myself, I don't have option to fly even though the birds have it. As you see, just because i don't have the option to fly, it doesn't mean i don't have free will. So , in the case of a person that never came into contact with any other religion ( and given that the fact you may not believe in the possibility of my [1] argument ), this person still has free will even if it can't pick a new religion.
Read the definition of free will:
free willn.1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

It's either god or hell. That's an ultimatum, not free will.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
ninerbuff said:
How the heck can you pick? What if you get adopted? Do you get to pick the parents or do they pick you? FAIL.


Let me make my explanation more complete. According to Spiritism, before you are born you can pick , as a Spirit, a rough "blueprint" of your life. Not every event is chosen by yourself, but some of them are. Given that being abandoned at such an age happens so early, i suppose this sort of thing would already be known to the Spirit as a bigger ( or smaller ) possibility due to the parents picked. If by any means he gets adopted by someone of a different religion it is also possible that the Spirit didn't care about which religion he would be born into.

ninerbuff said:
How about: put all religions in front of me and let me pick without any outside interference or coddling. That would be free will.


The way i see it, the choices we make are far more complex than we can imagine. A simple and yet usefull example: You can choose to eat 5 chocolate cakes in a day using your free will,but you may as well end up with a big stomach ache although you didn't thought/know that the stomach ache was part of the original choice. Free will , as i see it, is the choice of action, but not the choice of reactions your action is gonna result in. Nevertheless, Argument #1 explains that you could have chosen to live in an environment with such outside interference on purpose.


ninerbuff said:
Read the definition of free will:
free willn.1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will


Why, exactly, did you quote my argument #3 and made the above statement related to it?
Could you clarify to me how , exactly, the definition of free will is related to my argument #3?

Argument #3 talks about how humans, that never had contact with any other religion than theirs, are limited to sticking to their own religion just because they do not know of any other religion and not because anyone/anything is constraining them.

Now , if you are talking about contries/states ,that forbid the access of their civilians to another religion , i could once again use Argument #1 to say that you in the first place could have used your free will as a Spirit to pick a life with such restriction. Either with the aim to fight against it, or to live the challenge of being restricted in such a manner.

It is weird, but we can use our free will to constrain ourselves!
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Do you know many Bahais that grow up to be Muslims? Do you know many Bahais that have fond feelings towards shiite Muslims? Do you know many Bahais that marry outside of the faith without the other partner converting?

No (though this number is non-zero as I know of several), yes, and yes!

It would have been great to come in support of the Bahai religion while a Jehova's [sic] Witness, a Catholic, or a Muslim. Obviously, that is not the case here.

So, what?? Now I'm to apologize for not being Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, or Muslim???!

I think not.

And while I agree that would have been nice, it's hardly under my--or your!--control.

I provided accurate information to correct a mis-statement. Surely this is not objectionable.

Bruce
 
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The vast majority of Muslims are Muslims because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The vast majority of Christians are Christians because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The same applies to all other well established religions. Furthermore, the beliefs are sect specific. People tend to stay within the specific religious faction handed down to them by their families, and the same applies to politics and sports teams. It appears to be a tribal tendency.
The exceptions appear to be those where the individuals did not have a positive experience with their families and they tend to do the opposite of whatever their families did in most aspects of their lives. Given these facts, are we experiencing religious beliefs or simply religious indoctrinations?[/quote
whats your question concerning free will?
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
The vast majority of Muslims are Muslims because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The vast majority of Christians are Christians because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The same applies to all other well established religions. Furthermore, the beliefs are sect specific. People tend to stay within the specific religious faction handed down to them by their families, and the same applies to politics and sports teams. It appears to be a tribal tendency.
The exceptions appear to be those where the individuals did not have a positive experience with their families and they tend to do the opposite of whatever their families did in most aspects of their lives. Given these facts, are we experiencing religious beliefs or simply religious indoctrinations?


Well assuming classical free will even exists, i think there is a very real existence to the 'indoctrinations' you speak of.

We are, in all aspects of our lives formed very much by our early environment. For example son's often follow their fathers footsteps career wise, and are guided by peer pressures and exposures leading to what they get involved in and like to do.

Part of life is to be in part created by forces that are simply out of your complete control. Does this violate free will or is it necessary for its very existence as we know it? Where do we draw the line on these impacting forces? It isnt obvious, but that doesnt mean we cant recognise the very real difference between coercion and indoctrination and someone free from it.

In the case of religion, i think its a moral question. In any fixed setting, there will be adults and children. The adults all know, or should know what constitutes a healthy state of mind, what is to live the good life. They are, by teaching and engaging children of such an impressionable age responsible for them. Exposure to various cultures and viewpoints is a vital part of a complete education, but its when religious truths are preached to them repeatedly that they get ingrained or hardwired to the point that it distorts later thinking and interferes in the persons life. Just how any child abuse can cause lasting effects later in life.

Of course not all people brought up in religious families are examples of abuse. I think we as humans are very impressionable and inherently optimistic, and if there exists a loving family environment with values and behaviours that are enjoyed by all, one will naturally make the connections between the presence of the specific religion and these core values or way of life that agrees with them so. One would likely continue the religious title, and one would be doing so with as much free will as is useful to recognise. Of course this is a spectrum and various people will be bound to their religion to varying degrees, and thus later in life people will deny logic or scientific thought to varying amounts too.
 

ninerbuff

godless wonder
[/u][/b]

Let me make my explanation more complete. According to Spiritism, before you are born you can pick , as a Spirit, a rough "blueprint" of your life. Not every event is chosen by yourself, but some of them are. Given that being abandoned at such an age happens so early, i suppose this sort of thing would already be known to the Spirit as a bigger ( or smaller ) possibility due to the parents picked. If by any means he gets adopted by someone of a different religion it is also possible that the Spirit didn't care about which religion he would be born into.
Hard to believe because there are kids that are put in foster home after foster home and it totally wrecks them at a young age. Who would choose that or not care about it?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Who would choose to be born with a terrible disease?
The logic is the same. To improve spiritually.
Maybe the kid, in his spirit form before his current life, chose to live such a life. Although such thing can not be guaranteed as it would interfer with free will, it is possible to have some aid from other spirits during your life to suceed in your aims.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
The vast majority of Muslims are Muslims because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The vast majority of Christians are Christians because their families inculcated a specific faith in them. The same applies to all other well established religions.

You obviously aren't paying attention because I already refuted this in post #7 above!

Bruce
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
Free will is the ability to will anything. This is not possible for people, there are too many physical, biological, mental and cultural restraints on us doing this. Some people may want to be invisible or fly. Doesn't mean they can will it so.
 
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