Free will, determinism and absolute knowledge.

[Dan From Smithville]

As a Christian, a scientist, and a curious human, I am interested in these topics, but recent attempts to learn more about determinism have been decidedly rebuffed, but I would like to know more.

I have read arguments for and against free will. All I can say with any confidence is that I do not really know if we have it, but we appear to have it. Set me straight or show me its there.

From the perspective of a scientist, I cannot know anything absolutely, and scientific conclusions are always contingent on the discovery of new information. Is there any objective means to know something absolutely?

I put this in general religion, but if there is a better place besides file 13, please move it appropriately.

 

[RedDragon94]

Here's this to get you started:
Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?

 

[KelseyR]

Determinism is a useless term. Those of every belief determine that theirs is correct. The term you want to explore is rational determinism. Some beliefs are about valuing reason and others are not. For example: the faiths are abominations of reason, catering only to desire.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Re: Free Will - we had some discussions on it in the past here, and to be honest, I personally didn't gain much from them. I might spend some time searching professional articles in such a case.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Does atheism imply acceptance of determinism and a rejection of free will?

 

[RedDragon94]

As a Christian, a scientist, and a curious human, I am interested in these topics, but recent attempts to learn more about determinism have been decidedly rebuffed, but I would like to know more.

I have read arguments for and against free will. All I can say with any confidence is that I do not really know if we have it, but we appear to have it. Set me straight or show me its there.

From the perspective of a scientist, I cannot know anything absolutely, and scientific conclusions are always contingent on the discovery of new information. Is there any objective means to know something absolutely?

I put this in general religion, but if there is a better place besides file 13, please move it appropriately.

Scientific Atheistic Determinism makes sense of free will and determinism to me.

 

[RedDragon94]

Does atheism imply acceptance of determinism and a rejection of free will?

H*** no. Atheism implies nature and nurture working together.

Is there a rule against language?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Determinism is a useless term. Those of every belief determine that theirs is correct. The term you want to explore is rational determinism. Some beliefs are about valuing reason and others are not. For example: the faiths are abominations of reason, catering only to desire.

That is correct. It is that for which I am interested, but I purposefully left the word rational out for a reason. Is that an example of free will or just volition?

I agree. My own faith is based on my personal desire, which is why I do not use it as an answer, explanation or assertion to questions and observations about the natural world.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Re: Free Will - we had some discussions on it in the past here, and to be honest, I personally didn't gain much from them. I might spend some time searching professional articles in such a case.

I am not sure where this will go or even if it will last long. I am sure that there will be some strong opinions, but if there are people with interest or some useful information and good arguments, I will hang on as long as I can keep up. I ask no more of others, except to explain and support their positions.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I am not sure where this will go or even if it will last long. I am sure that there will be some strong opinions, but if there are people with interest or some useful information and good arguments, I will hang on as long as I can keep up. I ask no more of others, except to explain and support their positions.

I'll present a possibility. Say panthiesm is correct. If God and the universe are one, does that mean everything is basically in real time?

 

[KelseyR]

That is correct. It is that for which I am interested, but I purposefully left the word rational out for a reason. Is that an example of free will or just volition?

I agree. My own faith is based on my personal desire, which is why I do not use it as an answer, explanation or assertion to questions and observations about the natural world.

Free will is an entirely different topic. Freedom of will can be rationally argued true. Only the foolish sort of atheist argues against its existence.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Here is my take on rational determinism. I do not claim it is a good definition and want it to be corrected or extended as necessary based on what I learn here.

Determinism rejects free will. My idea of rational determinism is that the universe is completely rational and all knowledge regarding it can be discovered and through this discovery, knowledge of the future can be known.

I do not see that I have to invite people to give their view on this definition, so have at it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Free will is an entirely different topic.

But does not a basic acceptance of determinism reject free will?

Freedom of will can be rationally argued true. Only the foolish sort of atheist argues against its existence.

I would like a little more meat with my potatoes. Before straying too far, at some point, I hope someone will provide some of the better arguments in support of free will.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I'll present a possibility. Say panthiesm is correct. If God and the universe are one, does that mean everything is basically in real time?

Interesting. I do not know. I know that according to special relativity, different parts of the universe can experience time differently and gravity is a warping of space and time. Though, I am feeling fairly certain you may not have been including those in your question?

It may be bad timing that Polymath is heading out of the country, but Subduction Zone, and perhaps others, have a better grasp of the details of physics than I do.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Scientific Atheistic Determinism makes sense of free will and determinism to me.

If a brief summary does not do the subject an injustice, can you explain briefly what you mean by Scientific Atheistic Determinism?

 

[George-ananda]

I don’t see how traditional ‘determinism’ survives things like quantum mechanics and paranormal phenomena. We are in a universe in which we barely understand the surface.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Interesting. I do not know. I know that according to special relativity, different parts of the universe can experience time differently and gravity is a warping of space and time. Though, I am feeling fairly certain you may not have been including those in your question?

It may be bad timing that Polymath is heading out of the country, but Subduction Zone, and perhaps others, have a better grasp of the details of physics than I do.

Great post. My main point was arguing against Predeterminism.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Free will is an entirely different topic. Freedom of will can be rationally argued true. Only the foolish sort of atheist argues against its existence.

I really would be interested in hearing what you have to say on the subject of rational determinism. That has been an honest interest since I started reading your posts. I cannot guarantee you an outcome to my learning, but I can offer an abiding interest to a rational explanation of the subject.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Great post. My main point was arguing against Predeterminism.

I used to make a joke about it being my destiny to refute fate. So you do not see the will of some cause determining our actions or the direction of the universe?

 

[KelseyR]

But does not a basic acceptance of determinism reject free will?

I would like a little more meat with my potatoes. Before straying too far, at some point, I hope someone will provide some of the better arguments in support of free will.

The best argument for freedom of will is that we, as part of our surroundings have claim to a portion of its sum power. This is reinforced by empirically noting the brain and a need to ascribe some valid function to the intelligence it permits- thus free will.

Rational determinism is basically rejection of determinism as a concept; the opposite of it.