Free will and the Justice system...

[jeffrey]

This is sad, but also a perfect example of what is wrong with the prison system. People that go around thinking they know how a person behind bars mind works. Yet they have never been there or would ever take the time to have an honest discussion with someone who has. They haven't a clue what it is like to be raped or shot at or have a barrell of a gun shoved in their face, yet they claim to understand the victum's feelings. They claim to care, but would not ever invite an ex con to their home, let alone ever date a felon. You look down on them. They know this too. And would play you like a fiddle. Tell you things he thinks you want to hear. When I was in prison, case workers would come by and interview us. They pretended to care, but you could see right thru them. You would give then a line of B.S. and laugh to yourself as they ate it up. Then go back to your pod and relate the B.S. It was funny. Worked with the docs and the shrinks too.

 

[Fluffy]

This is sad, but also a perfect example of what is wrong with the prison system. People that go around thinking they know how a person behind bars mind works. Yet they have never been there or would ever take the time to have an honest discussion with someone who has. They haven't a clue what it is like to be raped or shot at or have a barrell of a gun shoved in their face, yet they claim to understand the victum's feelings. They claim to care, but would not ever invite an ex con to their home, let alone ever date a felon. You look down on them. They know this too. And would play you like a fiddle. Tell you things he thinks you want to hear. When I was in prison, case workers would come by and interview us. They pretended to care, but you could see right thru them. You would give then a line of B.S. and laugh to yourself as they ate it up. Then go back to your pod and relate the B.S. It was funny. Worked with the docs and the shrinks too.

What if somebody genuinly does want to help people no matter what they may have done in the past?

 

[Tawn]

I dont know if that was aimed at me or not, but personal experience doesnt always give you priviledged and superior knowledge of any given situation. Just a different perspective. For example theres a tv show called supernanny on english TV.. this woman basically tells parents how to properly manage their children - yet she herself has no children or parental experience, not even proper training as a nanny. She just applies common sense. It would be foolish therefore for any parent to make you statement - 'you dont know until youve had children'.. in some situations impartiality can actually give you a better perspective of a situation. Not that that is or isnt necessarily the case here.
I think youre correct that many people look down on prisioners.. and im sure there are naive and stupid social workers etc.. no doubt, of course on the other hand most prisioners dont have knowledge of psychology or social theory.. ever occured that the case workers are very aware theyre being played like a fiddle? Maybe they know this and just dont care.. I think that likely.. I mean they see prisioners more often than any individual prisoner sees case workers.. they realise the wider politics going on and probably know they cant actually help the prisoner.. but carry on with the charade just to keep their income. If anything its the top administrators and politicans in Government who make the policies that are the ignorant and naive ones.. the case workers are probably just making the best of a hopeless situation..
I dont know.. thats all speculation.. but things arent ever as simple as they seem.. what ever side of the bars youre on you have a limited perspective of the whole issue.

 

[jeffrey]

What if somebody genuinly does want to help people no matter what they may have done in the past?

Good question. Understand without judging. Listen. And be there for them no matter what. You would not believe the way people treated me when I got out. I went for not paying child support, but people acted like I murdered someone. They would hide their purse. Didn't want me talking to their kids. Some of the most down to earth people I met while in prison.

 

[jeffrey]

Tawn, I Agree with some of what you said. I'm driving now. I'll reply to this with my thoughts a little later. I do respect your views. Just listen to what I'm saying.

 

[Tawn]

Good question. Understand without judging. Listen. And be there for them no matter what. You would not believe the way people treated me when I got out. I went for not paying child support, but people acted like I murdered someone. They would hide their purse. Didn't want me talking to their kids. Some of the most down to earth people I met while in prison.

If we get back to my original post, do you think that the idea of free will, the idea that the criminal chooses freely to commit a crime - and is therefore entirely to blame for the offense - do you think that results in this terrible behaviour (the way people treat ex-cons)?
Are criminals somehow considered to be 'flawed' human beings? If they can break one law, then surely they can break any other law too.. is that the mentality this idea of free will creates?

 

[jeffrey]

1st. the nanny had 1st hand experience with kids. Maybe more so then most parents. If she had shown up at my door with no experience but told she she had read about how to raise kids, I'd have sent her packing. As far as your last question, I believe It's a combination of the 2, Yes, we are flawed, but we know wrong from right. If we do something wrong, It's by our choice. Drugs and alcohol can change our perspective. We then do things we normally wouldn't do. So is addiction free will? And what about addictive personalities? Back Later.

 

[jeffrey]

One more point I want to make to all the people that have read or replied to this thread. Once I stated that I was a felon, did your precept of me not change? I became less intelligent? My ideas less valid? Be honest. At least to yourself. This is something that most people that have been to prison have to deal with. And most of them are no different from you. They just did something stupid and got caught. How many of you have ever gotten behind the wheel of a car after having a drink or 2? The person in the bunk next to me had a couple of drinksand was driving home. A motorcycle pulled out in front of him. Even though it wasn't his fault, but because he had been drinking, it became his fault. He got 10 years.

 

[Pah]

One more point I want to make to all the people that have read or replied to this thread. Once I stated that I was a felon, did your precept of me not change? I became less intelligent? My ideas less valid? Be honest. At least to yourself. ....

Not me, I appreciate your perspective.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I wasn't affected by it either.

You were brave to admit it. Kudos for that!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I must confess that it did affect my impression of you. How could it not? I do, however, respect the fact that you accept responsibility for your past actions.

A deterrant is a CAUSE.. and its EFFECT is that it will make some people (depending on their particular circumstances) to decide not to commit crime.
The decision to improve yourself is also a CAUSE which will likely lead you to not commit crime.

The alternative view is that if free will does exist - then what is the point in prison? What is the point in consequences and deterrants - because the person is free to choose.. and can make that choice irrespective of outside influences.

Exactly. Things like deterrants and subliminal messages work because humans aren't special--we obey the same natural laws as everything else. The concept of 'free will' is archaic and has no business in modern discussion of human behavior, which centers around the nature vs. nurture debate (personally, I lean more towards the nurture side).

 

[jeffrey]

Thank you paw and NetDoc. Maybe my concept of free will is different. Prisons exist so hopefully people will chose not to commit a crime. If there was no free will, then why prisons? It then would not make a bit of difference. People that are predisposisioned to commit a crime would anyways. But by giving people a choice, most choose the right choice. People can change for the better. Or Worse. But they are free to choose which path they wish to take. I'm talking about the general population in prison. There are a few in there that even scare the doggie doodoo out of me. But they have mental problems. But I can also see why some people don't want free will to exist. God gives up free will to choose. If there is no free will, then in some people's eyes there is no God.

 

[michel]

This is sad, but also a perfect example of what is wrong with the prison system. People that go around thinking they know how a person behind bars mind works. Yet they have never been there or would ever take the time to have an honest discussion with someone who has. They haven't a clue what it is like to be raped or shot at or have a barrell of a gun shoved in their face, yet they claim to understand the victum's feelings. They claim to care, but would not ever invite an ex con to their home, let alone ever date a felon. You look down on them. They know this too. And would play you like a fiddle. Tell you things he thinks you want to hear. When I was in prison, case workers would come by and interview us. They pretended to care, but you could see right thru them. You would give then a line of B.S. and laugh to yourself as they ate it up. Then go back to your pod and relate the B.S. It was funny. Worked with the docs and the shrinks too.

Hey, Whoah!

When I helped out for a charity for the suicidal, we also went to a local prison -I personally never did, I didn't have transport then.

But I know , from my colleagues, how the visits were appreciated by the inmates; that a large proprtion of them were suffering from depression, anxieties -Fear even of when they were to be let out (some were really scared of reintegrating with society).

My Son James , at Uni in Durham, gave up a couple of hours a week to help run the cafeteria for visitors. His real aim was to be allowed to have contact with the prisoners; as a volunteer, he had the opportunity to sit in at lectures given by the authorities and interviews with some of the prisoners. He was genuinely surprised to find just how 'fragile' some of them were.

 

[jeffrey]

Hey, Whoah!

When I helped out for a charity for the suicidal, we also went to a local prison -I personally never did, I didn't have transport then.

But I know , from my colleagues, how the visits were appreciated by the inmates; that a large proprtion of them were suffering from depression, anxieties -Fear even of when they were to be let out (some were really scared of reintegrating with society).My Son James , at Uni in Durham, gave up a couple of hours a week to help run the cafeteria for visitors. His real aim was to be allowed to have contact with the prisoners; as a volunteer, he had the opportunity to sit in at lectures given by the authorities and interviews with some of the prisoners. He was genuinely surprised to find just how 'fragile' some of them were.

Forgive me. You are the exception to the rule! A lot of people cling to the hope of their wife or gf being there for them, only to have that evaporate on them. The total helplessness you feel can be overwhelming.

 

[michel]

Forgive me. You are the exception to the rule! A lot of people cling to the hope of their wife or gf being there for them, only to have that evaporate on them. The total helplessness you feel can be overwhelming.

I know; my friends who did prison 'duty' used to tell me that that was one of the greater anxieties of prisoners.

 

[Melody]

If there is no free will, then in some people's eyes there is no God.

Or if there is no free will then I can blame my bad choices on someone/something else.

 

[michel]

I dont think its as simple as resolving selfishness down to a gene.. I wouldnt bother to entertain that as a serious possibility unless someone showed me some evidence to show they had isolated this gene.. selfishness is more a lack of selflessness... we are ingrained with certain desires and needs and we act on them.. simple stuff..

Tawn,

before you put down Pah's comment about the selfish Gene, you might take a look at this site:- http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Books/selfish.shtml

 

[jeffrey]

Or if there is no free will then I can blame my bad choices on someone/something else.

Agreed...... THE DEVIL MADE ME MY IT! As long as we can blame others, there will be little or no change. I have an addictive personality. I, for one thing, love to gamble. How easy it would be for me to go to a casino and blow my entire pay check. Come home and tell my wife, "It's not my fault. It's my addictive personality!" Therefore no guilt. But because I have free will to choose, I choose not to, because I know I have a problem. The knowing it is wrong and not wanting that guilty feeling keeps me from them.

 

[Tawn]

Agreed...... THE DEVIL MADE ME MY IT! As long as we can blame others, there will be little or no change. I have an addictive personality. I, for one thing, love to gamble. How easy it would be for me to go to a casino and blow my entire pay check. Come home and tell my wife, "It's not my fault. It's my addictive personality!" Therefore no guilt. But because I have free will to choose, I choose not to, because I know I have a problem. The knowing it is wrong and not wanting that guilty feeling keeps me from them.

I dont think youre quite 'getting' what I mean. Responsibility has to be there because it is in itself a CAUSE of not committing futher crimes. What im trying to say is that I think society doesnt take any of that responsiblity on itself... this is not to remove or absolve the criminal of responsibility - I think we can all safely agree that is ridiculous. However I am suggesting that responsibility is less about taking the blame for past crimes but more about preventing further criminal acts. Justice shouldnt be about punishment but rehabilitation and a deterrant for crime. This is only a subtle difference, because the effect is the same.. you still have to use punishment as a deterrant and a way of inducing rehabilitation.. but the punishment isnt for punishments sake.. it serves a wider social good.
In practice then there is no change except that now society takes on responsibility and treats the criminal in a way to help them rehabilitate and reintegrate - not isolate.. and also does all it can to prevent the causes of crime.

 

[Fluffy]

Or if there is no free will then I can blame my bad choices on someone/something else.

I disagree. In a world with no free will, blame cannot exist. It is nobody's fault why you took a particular action, including your own. Fault and blame imply a choice, and for that matter a bad one. I think this is an area that me and Tawn appear to disagree on which is a pity because I was having fun seeing my exact set of beliefs evident in another person .