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Free will and the Justice system...

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
Another problem over here is that putting people has turned into a money making business for the counties here in Kentucky and other States. The voters here turned down a bill to build more prisons. So the State decided to pay the counties to hold prisoners. So some of the Counties built bigger jails, and stated filling them for any stupid offense they could think of. I was in jail with someone who got 6 months for urinating in public. Another was looking at 7 years for his 3rd offense of driving on a suspended licence.
 

Fluffy

A fool
Another problem over here is that putting people has turned into a money making business for the counties here in Kentucky and other States. The voters here turned down a bill to build more prisons. So the State decided to pay the counties to hold prisoners. So some of the Counties built bigger jails, and stated filling them for any stupid offense they could think of. I was in jail with someone who got 6 months for urinating in public. Another was looking at 7 years for his 3rd offense of driving on a suspended licence.
If that is the case then that is quite horrible indeed :(.
 

Tawn

Active Member
...and thats what you get for putting things that should rightly remain in the public sector into the private sector.

Police, Healthcare, Other emergency services, Public Transport (Bus + Train), Justice system should always and entirely remain in the public sector.
 

Fluffy

A fool
...and thats what you get for putting things that should rightly remain in the public sector into the private sector.

Police, Healthcare, Other emergency services, Public Transport (Bus + Train), Justice system should always and entirely remain in the public sector.
Tawn, regrettably you STILL get monetary abuses even when these services are kept within the public sector. The only example I can think of at the moment, however, is that of the recent uproar over police cameras and speeding fines which I am sure you are aware of. Also you missed trams out of public transport :p.
 

Tawn

Active Member
Hehe.. yeah but the private sector takes away the humane approach and replaces it with a strictly profit centred approach.. some of the people behind the speed cameras mean well.. though yes it is just another revenue generator.. but the problem is its acting similarily to the private sector. Similar to NHS hospitals charging for use of the car park. The public sector should only be able to make money through government contribution.. ideally..
ah well.. bring on the socialist revolution! :)
 

Fluffy

A fool
Hehe.. yeah but the private sector takes away the humane approach and replaces it with a strictly profit centred approach.. some of the people behind the speed cameras mean well.. though yes it is just another revenue generator.. but the problem is its acting similarily to the private sector. Similar to NHS hospitals charging for use of the car park. The public sector should only be able to make money through government contribution.. ideally..
ah well.. bring on the socialist revolution! :)
With the right wing shift that politics is taking these days, it looks unlikely in the foreseeable future :(. However, what would you do with the revenue that is generated from fines, in order to avoid the capitalist way of thinking from clouding the aim of the fine in the first place, or would you simply use an alternative form of deterrant?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Criminal Justice is a subject that is dreadfully emotive. We could be here debating theory and reality - in other words, ethics and practise - until the cows come home.

When a crime is perpetrated, there is a victim. None of us want to be victims - and so the Law is established, with deterrants to make offenders think twice. At the same time, when an accused person is proved guilty, the victim - perhaps subconsciously, at least, wants 'revenge' - in the form of punishment. Even if he himself doesn't (Perhaps he is a forgiving and phylosophical type) - the bulk of the rest of society wants punishment to be seen to be done. If we talk about a murder, then Society more than likely - deems that person a risk to have walking free (I mean, it could be 'Me' next time - I want that guy locked up)-you can almost 'hear' peoples' thoughts.

So we send the guy to prison. For how long ? Life. What does life mean ?

There was a recent case where a paranoid schizophrenic murdered someone, and was told that he would have to spend 22 Years in prison, before parole could be considered. That was a hard sentence - The 'norm' would probably have been 'Life' , meaning 25 Years, but with parole to be considered after 15 years. That does not satisfy those who are the victims (The relatives); for them, there is probably a desire for a death penalty.

Here, in England, the death penalty was abolished because no one could be certain that someone could be sentenced in error - so, here all murderes go to prison.

What happens in prison ? - I'll change 'tack' here, and talk about robbers, thieves - when these guys go to prison, more often than not, they find themselves in the company of fellow felons. The chances are that a thief will come out of prison knowing more about the art of theft than he did when he went in.

I am not being cynical; there will always be those who surprise even the prison authorities, but the bulk re-offend. In fact they re-offend so often that by middle age, the offender doesn't actually feel safe in society - much as a career soldier feels 'out of his environment' when leaving the forces. Some criminals have been known to come out of prison, and commit a crime as soon as possible, to be able to go back to the institution he understands, and in which he feels at ease.

So, the system doesn't really work. The entire prison system is a huge drain on the tax payer, and there are never enough cells, nor prisons.

Ideologically, from a moral standpoint, we should try to understand the reason for a crime. It is not just as simple as 'He had something I wanted, so I took it' - why did the burglar take it ? why didn't he do like everyone else, go and work, earn some money, and then buy the item - or probably nowadays, use a credit card before he can afford the article.

Does he have a bad work record; if he does, why ? is he lacking in self confidence ? has the Establishment let him down in educating him, when he was a child ? Did his parents and his surroundings lead him to believe that what he was doing was 'normal' ? - I think we can all see that there may well be some of these Reasons (not excuses - reasons) why the guy turned 'Bad'.

So, what should we do, from a moral standpoint ?
We ought to make good the deficiencies that led him to his path of crime. If he was born in the ghettos, from parents who knew no better, then perhaps he should be placed -as a young offender- in the care of a foster home in a 'nice' part of town. He will, after all, learn by example.

The above does'nt satisfy society. Society want revenge (a rose by any other name - call it punishmen); Society will feel better while the guy is in Prison - they're safe from him for the time being.

There actually is no answer - the criminal, from several perspectives, has no 'free will' - other threads have tried to show that the free will element is based on previous experiences, and character traits.

The Justice system has to abide by the 'Free will' of society - to lock the guy up.

And so we have a never-ending circular pattern - forseable, and which we deal with in the only way we know how. But it doesn't work, it is not 'Christian' in it's concept.

But we are only human.:help:
 

Fluffy

A fool
When a crime is perpetrated, there is a victim. None of us want to be victims - and so the Law is established, with deterrants to make offenders think twice. At the same time, when an accused person is proved guilty, the victim - perhaps subconsciously, at least, wants 'revenge' - in the form of punishment. Even if he himself doesn't (Perhaps he is a forgiving and phylosophical type) - the bulk of the rest of society wants punishment to be seen to be done. If we talk about a murder, then Society more than likely - deems that person a risk to have walking free (I mean, it could be 'Me' next time - I want that guy locked up)-you can almost 'hear' peoples' thoughts.


A lot of people would say that the reaction of revenge is a perfectly normal one but I can't help wondering if this is another feeling which has been ingrained as part of us as a society. Revenge is a wholly selfish emotion, no matter how justified it might be. The saying "If eye for and eye were followed then world would be blind" has a lot of truth in it and whilst sympathising with people's want for revenge is one thing, I do not think that giving in to and allowing their revenge is the best path to follow.

So, the system doesn't really work. The entire prison system is a huge drain on the tax payer, and there are never enough cells, nor prisons.
I agree it does not work but I disagree with your attack on the prisons via the cost of it. Imprisoning people is actually the cheapest form of justice that can be dealt since the death penalty costs far far more in excess and imprisoning prevents the immediate reoffences, and thereby the financial drain that would occur, if the prisoners were simply given a fine or community service.

The Justice system has to abide by the 'Free will' of society - to lock the guy up.
I agree with this as well. Hopefully, however, with increasing pressure on governments to reform the prison system, change will come eventually and a better method will be used.

I am not being cynical; there will always be those who surprise even the prison authorities, but the bulk re-offend. In fact they re-offend so often that by middle age, the offender doesn't actually feel safe in society - much as a career soldier feels 'out of his environment' when leaving the forces. Some criminals have been known to come out of prison, and commit a crime as soon as possible, to be able to go back to the institution he understands, and in which he feels at ease.
This is completely correct as is your idea that prisons actually increase the level of crime. Would you feel a reformation of the prison service is the way to go or to use an alternative method such as the death penalty. If you would go with the former, what form should such a reformation take? One of rehabilitation or solitary confinement or something else?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Hi Fluffy,

I agree with your dissent as to my objection of the prison system on the grounds of cost; that was worded badly - I do actually feel that the cost to the tax payer is ONE element to be taken into consideration. It is certainly not the paramount one - sorry if I worded my reply badly.

Your last question - I would have to say rehabilitation; but that is the point - I can't see society 'Going for it' - look at the hullabaloo (Spelling ?) raised when young offenders are sent on holiday on the tax payers' funds - you must have heard the "This just isn't right"'s of the average person.

Ideologically, yes, rehabilitation - and there is opportunity for this - to some extent, in the opportunity to study in Prison. But I think we all know within our hearts that this is just a case of ' second best-ing'. But it is probably what we will have to settle for. We are humans - we are second 'best' ourselves, and therefore our culture can not ideologically 'better' our limitations, because of prejudice, emotion ...take your pick.:)
 

Tawn

Active Member
chuck010342 said:
before I answer your question about free will you need to answer my question.

Can humans change their will?
Yes, just goto a lawyer.. oh.. not that sort of will.. hmz.. which begs the question - what do you mean by will? If free will is the ability to make any decision regardless of natural influences then will alone must be the decision making process or decision itself.
Their decision? Yes that can be changed, but only within the cause and effect framework. Their decision making process? Yes that can be changed, but only through natural influences..
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
Like I stated earlier, alot of people go back to prison because they go back to the friends and life style they had before. There is not that much exchangog of ideas. Their M O could not be that good, they're in jail too! Alot of it is the "I don't give a f***" attitude. And they don't think they will get caught. And once you have been, going back is no bag deal. You get fed good, and in the prison I ended up in, if you or your parents could afford $150, you could have your own tv. they had cable hook ups at all the bunks.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Tawn said:
I wasnt suggesting all of them should. Some people are just bad and their personality is irreversible.
But without freewill, society is still to blame, correct? Even if their condition is irreversible.

Tawn said:
However, what im suggesting is that some of the responsibility must be placed on society
And I suppose the other part of responsibility would have to be placed on genetics. Afterall, according to narturalism, there is no real self--we are just part of a big cosmic soup.
 

Tawn

Active Member
atofel said:
But without freewill, society is still to blame, correct? Even if their condition is irreversible.

And I suppose the other part of responsibility would have to be placed on genetics. Afterall, according to narturalism, there is no real self--we are just part of a big cosmic soup.
Yes, genetics may give someone a tendancy to commit crime.. for example someone might be psychologically predisposed towards reacting with anger..
Also I think theres a certain level of 'pot luck' here. Some events which happen to individuals cannot be prevented by society.. no matter how well managed..
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
Tawn said:
Yes, genetics may give someone a tendancy to commit crime.. for example someone might be psychologically predisposed towards reacting with anger..
Also I think theres a certain level of 'pot luck' here. Some events which happen..
Even though one's upbringing might have an effect on one's life and choices, you cannot take away responsibility of the act. It's to easy to blame others, which if you take away the blame from the indivual you take away the desire for change from that person. If you have someone thinking "It's not my fault" He's going to keep doing it. My wife is from England and went through a very violent relationship. The person she was with beat her on a regular basis. He was once told he was that way inclined because of his upbringing. After beating her he would tell her it wasn't his fault. He would blame the way he was raised or he would even blame her. Her fault. And as long as he can blame others, he has no reason to change.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Tawn said:
Yes, genetics may give someone a tendancy to commit crime..
I'm assuming you're talking about mental disorders? In which case, societal changes would have no effect on this individual because their mental disorder would manifest itself no matter how the society is structured.
 

Tawn

Active Member
Melody said:
I'm assuming you're talking about mental disorders? In which case, societal changes would have no effect on this individual because their mental disorder would manifest itself no matter how the society is structured.
Exactly.. but not just what we would describe as mental disorders.. even tendancies towards certain kinds of behaviour..
 

Pah

Uber all member
Tawn said:
Yes, genetics may give someone a tendancy to commit crime.. for example someone might be psychologically predisposed towards reacting with anger..
Also I think theres a certain level of 'pot luck' here. Some events which happen to individuals cannot be prevented by society.. no matter how well managed..
There is talk of a "selfish gene" but is has more to do with survival of the species than stealing. Assuming there is very little stealing for need (which may be thought genetical) most of stealing is traced to beginings of nuture.

Kleptomnia has a psychologicl background but the issue is not stealing but a cry for help for those issues.
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
pah said:
There is talk of a "selfish gene" but is has more to do with survival of the species than stealing. Assuming there is very little stealing for need (which may be thought genetical) most of stealing is traced to beginings of nuture.

Kleptomnia has a psychologicl background but the issue is not stealing but a cry for help for those issues.
Most of the people that are in prison for theft commited their crime because of need, usually drugs. The rare few that do it for the kick of it don't last long in with the normal population because if they steal from another innate, they get hurt. They end up in isolation. But like I said, most did what they did for need. Drugs being the main reason.
 

Tawn

Active Member
I dont think its as simple as resolving selfishness down to a gene.. I wouldnt bother to entertain that as a serious possibility unless someone showed me some evidence to show they had isolated this gene.. selfishness is more a lack of selflessness... we are ingrained with certain desires and needs and we act on them.. simple stuff..
 
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