Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

[Vouthon]

Again, he is hired not to teach his opinion on this but the Church's. Ideally, I agree with you, but life isn't always so ideal.

Hey, don't go by me on this because at a Catholic website I've already been told I'm committing a "mortal sin" because I question the accuracy of the traditional Catholic view on "original sin". IOW, at least one person there believes I'm going to hell, but I've been told that so many times that I'm sorta looking forward to the trip.

I understand your point about teaching the church's opinion rather than his own, I really do.

I just think that a lay catechist teacher in RCIA sincerely believing something different, while still fulfilling his duty to teach what the church officially believes in public, in faithful adherence to his conscience, is not in anyway parallel to a priest habitually breaking his vow.

For laity, it applies in many cases.

"...No one ought to act against his own conscience and he should follow his conscience rather than the judgement of the church when he is certain...one ought to suffer any evil rather than sin against conscience..."

- Pope Innocent III (1198-1216)​

That was in response to a married laywoman called Guilelma.

The priest has a much more rigorous calling and his entire mode of life is supposed to be a prayer, and model, for the faithful because he is meant to be In persona Christi a Latin phrase meaning “in the person of Christ”. To quote Pope Pius XII (1947):

The priest is the same, Jesus Christ, whose sacred Person His minister represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is made like to the High Priest and possesses the power of performing actions in virtue of Christ's very person.
​

You are following your conscience as faithfully as you can. There is obvious sincerity.

Yet this doesn't work in the case of a priest habitually living a double life. Why? Because if he has made a vow to stay celibate, there is just no getting around the fact that he could not possibly, under any notion of morality, consider it ethical to consistently subvert and act against a way of life he has promised to uphold - or expect anyone to believe that he did.

It's about the nature of undertaking a vow of consecration. It involves knowledge and consent.

See this, from the moral theologian Germain Grisez (whom John Paul II relied upon in writing many of his encyclicals) and written between 18 July 1979 and 21 April 1980:


CHRISTIAN MORAL PRINCIPLES : Chapter 3: Conscience: Knowledge of Moral Truth

According to common Catholic teaching, one must follow one’s conscience even when it is mistaken. St. Thomas explains this as follows. Conscience is one’s last and best judgment as to the choice one ought to make. If this judgment is mistaken, one does not know it at the time. One will follow one’s conscience if one is choosing reasonably. To the best of one’s knowledge and belief, it is God’s plan and will. So if one acts against one’s conscience, one is certainly in the wrong (see S.t., 1–2, q. 19, aa. 5–6).

Thomas drives home his point. If a superior gives one an order which cannot be obeyed without violating one’s conscience, one must not obey. To obey the superior in this case would be to disobey what one believes to be the mind and will of God (see S.t., 1–2, q. 19, a. 5, ad 2; 2–2, q. 104, a. 5). It is good to abstain from fornication. But if one’s conscience is that one should choose to fornicate, one does evil if one does not fornicate. Indeed, to believe in Jesus is in itself good and essential for salvation; but one can only believe in him rightly if one judges that one ought to. Therefore, one whose conscience is that it is wrong to believe in Jesus would be morally guilty if he or she chose against this judgment.

3. Still, one is not necessarily guiltless in following a conscience which is in error. If the error is one’s own fault, one is responsible for the wrong one does in following erroneous conscience. As Vatican II teaches: “Conscience frequently errs from invincible ignorance without losing its dignity. The same cannot be said when someone cares but little for truth and goodness, and conscience by degrees growspractically sightless as a result of a practice of sinning”.[1]​

The case of a habitually sexually active priest saying one thing in public and doing another in private without even trying to honour his vow, cannot ever be deemed faithful adherence to even an erring conscience. For this reason, it is a violation of one's sacred office.

As Jesus tells us in the Gospel:

Luke 12:48 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.​

 

[SomeRandom]

Haven't read the book...don't intend to. It sounds like a version of "Jews and their lies," or "Mormonism Unvailed..." I really dislike that sort of thing.

As to whether there are gays in the Catholic priesthood, I don't see a problem with it. Celibate is celibate; why should it matter which direction the temptations come from? Heterosexual priests have historically had just as many opportunities to break their vows as gay ones would. The important thing, it seems to me, is where one is going, not where one is coming from.

I know, that's pretty idealistic, but hey, one has to be idealistic in something, yes? ...Oh, and I am not Catholic.

The problem is not whether or not they’re gay. They could be exclusively into pink pokedoted purple aliens from Mars. The result is still the same. Blatant hypocrisy, judgement and un-Christ like behaviour from the very people who claim to be role models for Christianity. Last I checked Jesus spoke out against such behaviour, didn’t seem to mention homosexuality though.
Not only that but these are the very people who do their dardnest to hurt gay people under the guise of following God’s word. I’ll give it to some other members on this forum even, at least they’re consistent in their disavowing of homosexuality. I may not agree with them, but I can’t call them hypocrites.
The Catholic Church is rightly being called out and really should examine a mirror, or the mote in their eye, else they will lose even more credibility in the perception of the laity. Catholic and non Catholic alike.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Francis has riled his conservative critics in the Vatican over his apparently softer tone towards gay people. A few months into his papacy, he told reporters who asked about a “gay lobby” at the Vatican: “If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?”

Last year Juan Carlos Cruz, a Chilean survivor of sexual abuse, said Francis told him in a private meeting: “Juan Carlos, that you are gay does not matter. God made you like this and loves you like this and I don’t care. The pope loves you like this. You have to be happy with who you are.”​

I think these two paragraphs are tremendously important, yet likely to be overlooked.

You have to have some sympathy for a man like Francis, who has an immensely powerful curia and a global church all expecting that he'll hold to the doctrinal line, and yet who has had what I consider the crazy, amazing courage to say those things. When I heard him say "If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge," I have to say I thought that was as close to a miracle as I was ever likely to see.

But I knew this would be the way it went from his election, when on the balcony of St. Peter's we learned that he would be called "Francis." And at the very same moment, I began to fear for his life, because do not be deceived, there are many in the Church, as there were under the 33 day Pope John Paul I, who will go to almost any lengths to wrest back control in their own best interests.

Whatever else you might think of him, I personally (an atheist) think this is a man of immense spiritual depth and of courage. My admiration is still growing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims

Some of the most senior clerics in the Roman Catholic church who have vociferously attacked homosexuality are themselves gay, according to a book to be published next week.

Eighty per cent of priests working at the Vatican are gay, although not necessarily sexually active, it is claimed in the book, In the Closet of the Vatican.

It is being published in eight languages across 20 countries next Wednesday, coinciding with the opening day of a conference at the Vatican on sexual abuse, to which bishops from all over the world have been summoned.

Martel, a former adviser to the French government, conducted 1,500 interviews while researching the book, including with 41 cardinals, 52 bishops and monsignors, 45 papal ambassadors or diplomatic officials, 11 Swiss guards and more than 200 priests and seminarians, according to a report on the Catholic website the Tablet.

Many spoke of an unspoken code of the “closet”, with one rule of thumb being that the more homophobic a cleric was, the more likely he was to be gay.

According to Bloomsbury’s promotional material, Inside the Closet “reveals secrets” about celibacy, misogyny and plots against Pope Francis. It uncovers “a clerical culture of secrecy which starts in junior seminaries and continues right up to the Vatican itself”.

Francis has riled his conservative critics in the Vatican over his apparently softer tone towards gay people. A few months into his papacy, he told reporters who asked about a “gay lobby” at the Vatican: “If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?”

Last year Juan Carlos Cruz, a Chilean survivor of sexual abuse, said Francis told him in a private meeting: “Juan Carlos, that you are gay does not matter. God made you like this and loves you like this and I don’t care. The pope loves you like this. You have to be happy with who you are.”​

Its really a matter for the Catholic Church to address. An issue I have with the Catholic Church is its leadership rests with 'celibate' men. This appears imbalanced and psychologically unhealthy. Apparently many of the celibate men aren't celibate at all, and the priesthood attracts men who have unresolved issues with their sexuality.

As a significant portion of the pastoral care of communities concerns guidance to couples and rearing of children, it makes sense to have role models who have strong marriages who have successfully raised children of good character that contribute positively towards their communities.

 

[Shaul]

Strictly speaking there is nothing in Catholic Church doctrine or rules to prevent a homosexual from being a priest. What would be against its doctrine and rules would be to be a practicing homosexual. But the Catholic Church requires all priests lead celibate lives, whether the are heterosexual or homosexual.

 

[Salvador]

I don't see anything wrong with the majority of Vatican-employed clerics being gay, if the statistics are correct, and that's not really the import of the Guardian article.

The significance of this study is that some of the most homophobic among the hierarchy are actually gay themselves and some are living openly gay lifestyles while condemning it in public, and claiming to be celibate in accordance with their vows.

It's long been a sort of open secret among the laity that gay people are probably well represented in the ranks of the clergy.

An all-male environment, which many heterosexual Catholic males don't want to join because they can't, publicly at least, be sexually active or get married due to the rules introduced in the Gregorian Reforms of the 11th century.

I think that many gay Catholic males, with perfectly good intent, come to holy orders with the rationale that, since they can't marry another man in the church, then they might as well serve the Lord as a celibate cleric.

Unfortunately, the all-male environment presents them with certain unique difficulties in keeping to their vows, which straight priests don't face (unless they happen to be working a lot with nuns).

But what is ironic, is that to cover up their own sexuality, a good number of gay hierarchs have apparently become outwardly very homophobic according to the study.

There's nothing wrong with beiing gay, but there is something wrong with acting upon pedophilia urges. There should be a survey done for Catholics, who were altar boys, questioning them if they were ever sexually assaulted or sexually harassed by their Priests. Then, the results of this study should then be compared to the study done for public high school students who were asked if they were ever sexually harassed or sexually assaulted by a public school employee.

Would I be able to conduct a survey in the Catholic section of RF, asking Catholics if they ever had been an altar boy at Church, if so, then were they ever sexually harassed/sexually abused by his Priest?

 

[Jainarayan]

About 20+ years ago I belonged to a gay men's group started by a former Catholic priest who was gay. He said pretty much the same thing over 20 years ago... 80-90 percent of the priests were gay. I don't think it's anything new.