For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Link]

Sorry Link, but if you continue to insist that Trinitrianism teaches "1 God plus 1 God plus 1 God," then you are a liar. At any rate, I'm simply repeating myself at this point, so I'm moving on. You can have the last word if you wish.

I'm not insisting they claim they teach that. I'm saying it's a implication and contradiction. I think the person you quoting is saying the same. They are looking away from the obvious fact, that it implies that, and also implies God is one of each. There is actually a triple contradiction all contradicting each other. God is 1/3 part + complete unity + 3. All these can be derived and it's a paradox that is obviously a falsehood.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You didn't give me any verse in John, you threw the whole book at me and claimed it teaches the Trinity.

Just like every Trinity proponent that exists, your familiarity with the finer points of your own argument is very weak and you have no fodder with which to make your case.

You can't show a single teaching of the Trinity concept from Scripture because it doesn't exist.

If it DID exist, this age-old controversy, that's gone on since around 300 A.D., wouldn't.

Face it. You're either emotionally chained to the concept due to those you know and love believing in it, or you're monetarily chained to it due to being paid to propagandize about it on the internet.

You have NO Biblical foundation to make your case.

It is what it is.

The Gospel of John
Chapter1 - Word is God and became flesh -God the Son
Chapter 14&16 - Holy Spirit sent when Jesus goes back to His Throne
Chapter 17 - Father and the Son are One- they are one but 2 persons. Are you saying the Father and Son are the same person like Jesus was talking to himself?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes and 1 God, plus 1 God, plus 1 God = 3 Gods.

Why aren't you comprehending that?

The best of your apologists, and preachers, fully admit the Trinity doctrine cannot be understood. That is the very definition of "confusion" and God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

That is exactly why He put no teaching anywhere in the entire Bible that God is three persons. He loves man and does not wish to confuse him or make the Truth any more difficult to understand than is possible. If He were three people, He would have taught that in multiple places in the Bible, not just tossed little hints here and there without any explanation whatsoever.

The concept that God is ONE fully explains all of the mentions of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is literally the OTHER explanation for it that no Trinitarian wishes to mention.

Again, Isaiah chapters 40-48 showcase the Father declaring that He IS the Son many times. Isaiah 9:6 also declares this. No Trinitarian has any rebuttal for these facts but to claim that it doesn't mean what it says.

So, let's think about this. The Bible says that God is ONE many times, but Trinitarians declare that it doesn't mean what it plainly states. THEN the Bible says NOTHING about God being three persons, as MAN claims, and Trinitarians declare that it's just a mystery that we must accept from the mouth of man.

ABSOLUTE HOG WASH. That is all the Trinity LIE will ever be.

HOG WASH.

God is One (Echad) not (Yachid) like you are saying.
Is Jesus God? Yes
Is the Father God?Yes
Is the Holy Spirit God ? Yes
3 persons 1 God
Not sure what you believe, do you believe Jesus Christ is God incarnate?

 

[Trailblazer]

This is not how you support your claim.

In the same way i can say to you that you don't want God to be human so that is what you desire to belive.

What you get from that is called infinite regression.

The way I support my claim is by presenting evidence.
I did that when I presented the Bible verses that show Jesus is not God (thus God is not a human).

Jesus is not God Bible verses

Hmm...
Let's say that is his personal opinion.

You multiply that to the number of people who deliver the same message , automatically stops beeing a personal opinion,it developes in form of an idea.The more people that share that idea , the more fundemental that idea becomes.

The 'number of people' who deliver the same message and believe in that message does not make that message true.

That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

It is very odd to claim this , since teachings are passed from generation to generation for 2000 years.

But that doesn't make the message true.

Ask yourself how truth is that of yourself and your own life.Have you adressed all that?

Are you concerning yourself with the dust in your oponent eyes,instead of attending to learn and widen your view?

Do you want accusation, suspition, discord, derision or peace , prosperity and knowledge?

I don't know where all of this is coming from. All I said was that he only has a personal opinion. I am not accusing or deriding.
Yes, I have widened my view.

Who and what is the enemy here?
The serpent in our heart or maybe the arrogance of our intellect?
Do we want revenge or justice , do we want contempt or mercy?

Nobody is the enemy. @Brian2 is mt friend, a friend I have had for many years.

I can see even the best of man degenerating in the exchange of blows.

The enemy is that which divides to sow discord,pride and fear that stops us from landing a hand across the divide.

I agree, that is the enemy. I think we need to try to reach across the divide.

Let me ask you something , do you know the root of 'Word' comes from Greek Logos(/ˈlɒɡɒs/)?
That is the principle of reason and judgement.

Language produces words , and words makes sentences.

The only thing capable of producing language is the mind , and yet in some sense you reject that,Why?

What do you think I am rejecting? I am not rejecting the mind.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, much of the above are attributes of the Messiah described in the Torah and the Baha'i writings, but being an incarnate God or the Trinity.

Jesus said that only God is good and Baha'is say that the Manifestations are good but not God.

 

[YoursTrue]

So here are some OT passages, and I don't care if the Jews translate them differently even if you do and want to say that the Christian translations are lying.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Zech 12:10Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
(This is YHWH speaking)

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger (John the Baptist), who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
And shall call his name Immanuel. (God with us)

Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Once I start on the New Testament quotes from the OT and which make quotes about YHWH applicable to Jesus, it become more plain that Jesus is called God and YHWH.

Jesus came into the position as everlasting father for all those having faith in him and following him.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus came into the position as everlasting father for all those having faith in him and following him.

Yes I understand it to mean that Christians are children of God through Jesus the Son of God. Sort of grandchildren of God and we are Jesus children.
Isa 53:10 Yet yit was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes I understand it to mean that Christians are children of God through Jesus the Son of God. Sort of grandchildren of God and we are Jesus children.
Isa 53:10 Yet yit was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand

Yes. If not we'd all be children of Adam without hope of everlasting life.

 

[shunyadragon]

”“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’ ”“
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If anything else this citation would support the One and Only God, and not three.

 

[shunyadragon]

I did already, just because you make a different point that had nothing to do with what I was saying means nothing but you don’t really follow the flow or context of people’s comments.
You make “council of gods” from psalms and a different context of scriptures than Genesis which I was talking about and showed in Isaiah how there are no other gods except Jehovah the self existent one, He has no counselor or council in creation. Let Us is Father, Son and Holy Spirit we are made in their image echad.

No you have not.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible knows nothing about any Baha'i Manifestations of God.
Before God created anything there was only God.
That is the same as "In the beginning there was only God".
God was not created, just as John 1:3 and Col 1:15,16 also tell us that the Word was not created.
God created all things, visible and invisible through Jesus. (Col 1:15,16) and that would include angels and Baha'i Manifestations.

Baha'u'llah wrote that God’s creation has always existed, which implies that it was not 'created' by anyone.
Since God and His creation has always existed, that means that God has never been without His creation, which means that God was never alone.
Here is the passage:

“As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.

As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 150-151

 

[Trailblazer]

And 1Tim 3:16 is not about any Baha'i interpretation of "Manifestation of God".

Jesus was not God in the flesh, Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3-16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

A Manifestation of God is God manifest in the flesh. Jesus showed God clearly through His actions.

manifest
to show something clearly, through signs or actions: manifest something in something
The workers chose to manifest their dissatisfaction in a series of strikes. manifest itself in/as The illness first manifested itself in/as severe stomach pains.5 days ago

MANIFEST | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary​

So @shunyadragon is wrong about this and Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus according to Baha'i.
Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

You'll have to take that up with him.

It can appear that way, and that Jesus became God's Son when He became a man.
We do however see that God made the universe through the Son (Heb 1:2), so He was the Son or a Son before becoming a man.
And we know that He was not created because all created things came through Him.
So He had no beginning and was the Son of God in the beginning.

I addressed what I believe about the creation issue in my previous post.

Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient.)
You even say that the Manifestations of God also have these attributes.
And a perfect human can have these attributes, so being the Divine Son of God did not mean that He was a Demigod with superhuman powers, as @shunyadragon supposes. He was an example of a perfect human.

As I said in a previous post God conferred upon Jesus a spiritual nature that ordinary humans do not possess. God assigned a twofold nature upon Jesus, the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual nature, which is born of the substance of God Himself.

Jesus got His spiritual nature from God before He was born into this world because Jesus existed in the spiritual world with God before he was born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Jesus got His human nature after he was born from the womb of Mary.

It is the spiritual nature from which Jesus declares that He is the Voice of God, but from His human mature he declares that He is just a human like the rest of us.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[Brian2]

Baha'u'llah wrote that God’s creation has always existed, which implies that it was not 'created' by anyone.
Since God and His creation has always existed, that means that God has never been without His creation, which means that God was never alone.
Here is the passage:

“As to thy question concerning the origin of creation. Know assuredly that God’s creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. His name, the Creator, presupposeth a creation, even as His title, the Lord of Men, must involve the existence of a servant.

As to those sayings, attributed to the Prophets of old, such as, “In the beginning was God; there was no creature to know Him,” and “The Lord was alone; with no one to adore Him,” the meaning of these and similar sayings is clear and evident, and should at no time be misapprehended. To this same truth bear witness these words which He hath revealed: “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He will always remain what He hath ever been.” Every discerning eye will readily perceive that the Lord is now manifest, yet there is none to recognize His glory. By this is meant that the habitation wherein the Divine Being dwelleth is far above the reach and ken of any one besides Him. Whatsoever in the contingent world can either be expressed or apprehended, can never transgress the limits which, by its inherent nature, have been imposed upon it. God, alone, transcendeth such limitations. He, verily, is from everlasting. No peer or partner has been, or can ever be, joined with Him. No name can be compared with His Name. No pen can portray His nature, neither can any tongue depict His glory. He will, for ever, remain immeasurably exalted above any one except Himself.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 150-151

The 3 persons in one God have never been alone since they have each other.
The actual quoted saying in Baha'u'llah's writings is, as in much of his writings, couched in indecipherable language which might not mean what it appears to say.
You say it means that the creation has always existed, which implies that it was not created by anyone.
Other parts of Baha'u'llah's writings indicate that God created His creation. (actually the word "creation" indicates that is was created.)

God's motive for bringing the creation into being is essentially twofold. The first is love: "I loved thy creation, hence I created thee" (Bahá'u'lláh, Hidden Words, p. 6).
That is from this site: Creation

So really there is a mountain of unintelligible philosophy that is illogical in places and contradictory imo.
Compare that with the simplicity of the Bible which tells us that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Brian2]

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

I suppose this means that humans, or at least most of them, were created.
Maybe Shoghi Effendi also is confused about the writings of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Dimi95]

The way I support my claim is by presenting evidence.
I did that when I presented the Bible verses that show Jesus is not God (thus God is not a human).

Jesus is not God Bible verses

I can use the same method and point to you verses that are comfirming the oposite.I just seek to avoid that procces.

The thing is that all this answers are known to me.
Do you know how i get to know this?
Statistical analysis

But that doesn't make the message true.

I agree that doesn't make the message true.

I just explained what fundemental means,but you interprete it like it was fallacy, so now i give it back to you as you gave it to me in the first place.

What you did is known as informal fallacy , but i don't want to continue in details , since i assume that we understand each other.

I am glad that you pointed out true, so can you tell me , what is truth?

I don't know where all of this is coming from. All I said was that he only has a personal opinion. I am not accusing or deriding.
Yes, I have widened my view.

Hmmm... How is God incarnated , a personal opinion? That is Christian testimony my friend..

I agree, that is the enemy. I think we need to try to reach across the divide.

I am happy for that

What do you think I am rejecting? I am not rejecting the mind.

In some sense you do that , since the Logos is made flesh as John 1:14 states

John 1:14 Interlinear: And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Ok , let's see how you respond to this

Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"

In context, this verse is proclaiming the redemption of Israel and the activities, titles, and blessings of the Messiah who is to rule the earth and usher in a reign of blessing and peace that will have no end. One of His titles is 'Everlasting Father.'

The Hebrew phrase translated 'Everlasting Father' could be translated literally 'Father of Eternity.' For this reason, some have suggested that the title means that this coming Messiah is also the creator of everything: He is the father of time and eternity, the 'architect of the ages.' While we know this to be true from the New Testament (John 1:1–3, Colossians 1:16–17), that is not the emphasis in Isaiah. In the Hebrew construction of the phrase, father is the primary noun, and everlasting (ESV, NIV, KJV) or eternal (NASB) is the term that describes His fatherhood. He is Father forever.

The Hebrew word translated 'everlasting' has the idea of 'in perpetuity' or 'without end.' Indeed, the next verse says of the Messiah, 'Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end' (Isaiah 9:7). The emphasis is forward looking, so 'everlasting' is probably a better translation than 'eternal,' which not only indicates 'without end' but also 'without beginning'."

You all make the same mistake when you point at Christianity

Christianity is not a religion in the sense of the word religion,because when you invoke the name religion or the word religion,automatically you are invoking a set of rules,guidlines,regulations and laws.

You go to all the religions of the world you will recive this or some simular answer:
"If you want to end up in a good place you must do this , you must do that" and so on..

It is all about doing , doing , doing in order to end up in a good place

You observe Christianity a little bit more , you go to John 15:5:

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

It is very clear and simple , without Jesus you cannot do anything.

Totally different from any other belief.

So Christianity is based on love,
1 Corinthians 13
"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.".

I can show you with mathematical orders and values how Jesus is the centre of everything,including Tanakh , NT and the Quran.

 

[ElishaElijah]

If anything else this citation would support the One and Only God, and not three.

Revelation of Jesus Christ: He is also the First and the Last, the Almighty
”“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬, ‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes and 1 God, plus 1 God, plus 1 God = 3 Gods.

When I asked you before how many
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you said one and now you say 3?

 

[shunyadragon]

Jesus said that only God is good and Baha'is say that the Manifestations are good but not God.

False. Same God. Though at times in the Bible God is jealous, vindictive, angry, very tribal and rather nasty form an ancient human perspective. Angry enough to wipe out all life on earth except on Noah's Ark,

 

[shunyadragon]

I suppose this means that humans, or at least most of them, were created.
Maybe Shoghi Effendi also is confused about the writings of Baha'u'llah.

All humanity, life and our universe were Created by God, but not by the ancient tribal description in Genesis with the tribal pantheon of Gods. This is an ancient human perspective without science. The Baha'i Creation is in harmony with the life, earth and universe billions of years, without the unresolvable conflicts of the various contradictory Creation of ancient religions and cultures.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Gospel of John
Chapter1 - Word is God and became flesh -God the Son
Chapter 14&16 - Holy Spirit sent when Jesus goes back to His Throne
Chapter 17 - Father and the Son are One- they are one but 2 persons. Are you saying the Father and Son are the same person like Jesus was talking to himself?

Heavy biased interpretation of scripture to justify your agenda.