For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

The Bible says that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son:

God's Son is one with the Father (I and my Father are one - John 10:30)
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

The Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror reflecting God's attributes, and God became visible in the mirror, meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

But the Bible does not say that the Father became a man. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity says that.

No neither the Bible nor the trinity teaching say that the Father became a man.
The Father is in the Son because the Father is literally in the Son,,,,,,,,,,, just as the Son is literally in the Father.
Christ is literally in Christians (through the Holy Spirit) and the Father is literally in Christians through the Holy Spirit. Christians are spiritually joined to Jesus, the adopted children, and Christians are joined to each other, one, because we are all in Christ.
And no, that does not make us God, it make Christians into the one body of Christ. The Temple of God where God literally dwells.

No, the Bible never said anything about the Baha'i "Manifestations" of God because that had not been revealed at the time that the Bible was written. That was revealed by Baha'u'llah much later.

And 1Tim 3:16 is not about any Baha'i interpretation of "Manifestation of God".

The virgin birth is an 'official' Baha'i belief.

1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."

(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)
1639. Bahá’í Teachings in Agreement with Doctrines of Catholic Church Concerning the Virgin Birth

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus: On this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the 'Kitáb-i-Íqán' (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the 'Some Answered Questions', Chap. XII, p. 73, explicitly states that 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."

(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

So @shunyadragon is wrong about this and Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus according to Baha'i.
Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

The Bible says that God's Son is one with the Father (I and my Father are one - John 10:30) but the Bible does not say that God's Son became a human. The latter is only a Christian doctrine.

It can appear that way, and that Jesus became God's Son when He became a man.
We do however see that God made the universe through the Son (Heb 1:2), so He was the Son or a Son before becoming a man.
And we know that He was not created because all created things came through Him.
So He had no beginning and was the Son of God in the beginning.

Jesus has many attributes of God the Father, but Jesus was not exactly like His Father because Jesus did not have ALL the attributes of His Father.

Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

One of God's other attributes is Infallible, and the Manifestations of God also have this attribute.

Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. The Manifestations of God also have these attributes.

The Bible says Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15,16) and that before He became a man He was in the form of God (Phil 2:6) and it seems that this was something that made Him equal to God.
When He became a man He was still the same person but did not use His God attributes. God qualities otoh are things that He just has as the same person He was,,,,,,,,,,, iow He did not loose what you call His "other attributes" just because He became a man. ( Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient.)
You even say that the Manifestations of God also have these attributes.
And a perfect human can have these attributes, so being the Divine Son of God did not mean that He was a Demigod with superhuman powers, as @shunyadragon supposes. He was an example of a perfect human.

 

[ElishaElijah]

This does not necessarily refer to the the Trinity. Biblically there are references to a "Council of Gods", maybe 'our" may include Angels or as some believe Manifestation of God all preexistent before Creation. This is where stretching the interpretation of an "our" to refer to the "Trinity" is insufficient to justify the interpretation.

God was not in council with angels and there aren’t other gods in creation when He said let us make man in our image.
There are not multiple Gods, there is one God (echad) who is Father (yachid),Son (yachid), Holy Spirit (yachid).
This is how God has manifested and revealed Himself to us in Scripture.

 

[shunyadragon]

No neither the Bible nor the trinity teaching say that the Father became a man.
The Father is in the Son because the Father is literally in the Son,,,,,,,,,,, just as the Son is literally in the Father.
Christ is literally in Christians (through the Holy Spirit) and the Father is literally in Christians through the Holy Spirit. Christians are spiritually joined to Jesus, the adopted children, and Christians are joined to each other, one, because we are all in Christ.
And no, that does not make us God, it make Christians into the one body of Christ. The Temple of God where God literally dwells.



And 1Tim 3:16 is not about any Baha'i interpretation of "Manifestation of God".



So @shunyadragon is wrong about this and Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus according to Baha'i.
Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith


It can appear that way, and that Jesus became God's Son when He became a man.
We do however see that God made the universe through the Son, so He was the Son or a Son before becoming a man.
And we know that He was not created because all created things came through Him.
So He had no beginning and was the Son of God in the beginning.



The Bible says Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15,16) and that before He became a man He was in the form of God (Phil 2:6) and it seems that this was something that made Him equal to God.
When He became a man He was still the same person but did not use His God attributes. God qualities otoh are things that He just has as the same person He was,,,,,,,,,,, iow He did not loose what you call His "other attributes" just because He became a man. ( Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient.)
You even say that the Manifestations of God also have these attributes.
And a perfect human can have these attributes, so being the Divine Son of God did not mean that He was a Demigod with superhuman powers, as @shunyadragon supposes. He was an example of a perfect human.

Yes, much of the above are attributes of the Messiah described in the Torah and the Baha'i writings, but being an incarnate God or the Trinity.

 

[shunyadragon]

God was not in council with angels and there aren’t other gods in creation when He said let us make man in our image.
There are not multiple Gods, there is one God (echad) who is Father (yachid),Son (yachid), Holy Spirit (yachid).
This is how God has manifested and revealed Himself to us in Scripture.

Divine Council - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Council of Gods"

The Psalm 82 states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים Elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ‘ăḏaṯ-’êl); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to Yahweh, while others propose that the God of Israel rules over a divine assembly of other gods or angels.[9] Some translations of this passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 – "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]

In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.

The first two chapters of the Book of Job describe the "Sons of God" assembling in the presence of Yahweh. Like "multitudes of heaven", the term "Sons of God" defies certain interpretation. This assembly has been interpreted by some as another example of divine council. Others translate "Sons of God" as "angels", and thus argue this is not a divine council because angels are God's creation and not deities.

"The role of the divine assembly as a conceptual part of the background of Hebrew prophecy is clearly displayed in two descriptions of prophetic involvement in the heavenly council. In 1 Kings 22:19–23... Micaiah is allowed to see God (elohim) in action in the heavenly decision regarding the fate of Ahab. Isaiah 6 depicts a situation in which the prophet himself takes on the role of the messenger of the assembly and the message of the prophet is thus commissioned by Yahweh. The depiction here illustrates this important aspect of the conceptual background of prophetic authority."[15]

 

[ElishaElijah]

Divine Council - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Council of Gods"

The Psalm 82 states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים Elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ‘ăḏaṯ-’êl); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to Yahweh, while others propose that the God of Israel rules over a divine assembly of other gods or angels.[9] Some translations of this passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 – "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]

In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.

The first two chapters of the Book of Job describe the "Sons of God" assembling in the presence of Yahweh. Like "multitudes of heaven", the term "Sons of God" defies certain interpretation. This assembly has been interpreted by some as another example of divine council. Others translate "Sons of God" as "angels", and thus argue this is not a divine council because angels are God's creation and not deities.

"The role of the divine assembly as a conceptual part of the background of Hebrew prophecy is clearly displayed in two descriptions of prophetic involvement in the heavenly council. In 1 Kings 22:19–23... Micaiah is allowed to see God (elohim) in action in the heavenly decision regarding the fate of Ahab. Isaiah 6 depicts a situation in which the prophet himself takes on the role of the messenger of the assembly and the message of the prophet is thus commissioned by Yahweh. The depiction here illustrates this important aspect of the conceptual background of prophetic authority."[15]

[ In Creation ] as I said God was not in council with angels or other gods who are are not Gods but idols.
We are not created in the image of angels but in Gods image and likeness.

 

[Dimi95]

You want God to me a human so that is what you believe, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that God became a human.

This is not how you support your claim.

In the same way i can say to you that you don't want God to be human so that is what you desire to belive.

What you get from that is called infinite regression.

You BELIEVE that Baha'is have trouble understanding passages in the Bible because you BELIEVE that you understand them and we don't but that is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

Hmm...
Let's say that is his personal opinion.

You multiply that to the number of people who deliver the same message , automatically stops beeing a personal opinion,it developes in form of an idea.The more people that share that idea , the more fundemental that idea becomes.

It is very odd to claim this , since teachings are passed from generation to generation for 2000 years.

Ask yourself how truth is that of yourself and your own life.Have you adressed all that?

Are you concerning yourself with the dust in your oponent eyes,instead of attending to learn and widen your view?

Do you want accusation, suspition, discord, derision or peace , prosperity and knowledge?

Who and what is the enemy here?
The serpent in our heart or maybe the arrogance of our intellect?
Do we want revenge or justice , do we want contempt or mercy?

I can see even the best of man degenerating in the exchange of blows.

The enemy is that which divides to sow discord,pride and fear that stops us from landing a hand across the divide.

We have light and darkness in some symbolic way.
Do you know what survives? The one you feed all the way..

Let me ask you something , do you know the root of 'Word' comes from Greek Logos(/ˈlɒɡɒs/)?
That is the principle of reason and judgement.

Language produces words , and words makes sentences.

The only thing capable of producing language is the mind , and yet in some sense you reject that,Why?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Divine Council - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Council of Gods"

The Psalm 82 states "God (אֱלֹהִ֔ים Elohim) stands in the divine assembly (בַּעֲדַת-אֵל ‘ăḏaṯ-’êl); He judges among the gods (אֱלֹהִ֔ים elohim)" (אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט). The meaning of the two occurrences of "elohim" has been debated by scholars, with some suggesting both words refer to Yahweh, while others propose that the God of Israel rules over a divine assembly of other gods or angels.[9] Some translations of this passage render "God (elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty to judge the heart as God (elohim)"[10] (the Hebrew is "beqerev elohim", "in the midst of gods", and the word "qerev" if it were in the plural would mean "internal organs"[11]). Later in this Psalm, the word "gods" is used (in the KJV): Psalm 82:6 – "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." Instead of "gods", another version has "godlike beings",[12] but here again, the word is elohim/elohiym (Strong's H430).[13] This passage is quoted in the New Testament in John 10:34.[14]

In the Books of Kings (1 Kings 22:19), the prophet Micaiah has a vision of Yahweh seated among "the whole host of heaven" standing on his right and on his left. He asks who will go entice Ahab and a spirit volunteers. This has been interpreted as an example of a divine council.

The first two chapters of the Book of Job describe the "Sons of God" assembling in the presence of Yahweh. Like "multitudes of heaven", the term "Sons of God" defies certain interpretation. This assembly has been interpreted by some as another example of divine council. Others translate "Sons of God" as "angels", and thus argue this is not a divine council because angels are God's creation and not deities.

"The role of the divine assembly as a conceptual part of the background of Hebrew prophecy is clearly displayed in two descriptions of prophetic involvement in the heavenly council. In 1 Kings 22:19–23... Micaiah is allowed to see God (elohim) in action in the heavenly decision regarding the fate of Ahab. Isaiah 6 depicts a situation in which the prophet himself takes on the role of the messenger of the assembly and the message of the prophet is thus commissioned by Yahweh. The depiction here illustrates this important aspect of the conceptual background of prophetic authority."[15]

”“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’ ”“
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[shunyadragon]

”“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’ ”“
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭44‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Failed to respond to the fact of scripture concerning the "Council of Gods" and the use of "our,"

 

[ElishaElijah]

Failed to respond to the fact of scripture concerning the "Council of Gods" and the use of "our,"

I did already, just because you make a different point that had nothing to do with what I was saying means nothing but you don’t really follow the flow or context of people’s comments.
You make “council of gods” from psalms and a different context of scriptures than Genesis which I was talking about and showed in Isaiah how there are no other gods except Jehovah the self existent one, He has no counselor or council in creation. Let Us is Father, Son and Holy Spirit we are made in their image echad.

 

[Endure]

Gave you verse in Genesis and Gospel of John, you must’ve missed those - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so how can you say scripture doesn’t say?
Echad is used for describing God which means plurality of one not Yachid meaning singular one.
So where is your scripture?

You didn't give me any verse in John, you threw the whole book at me and claimed it teaches the Trinity.

Just like every Trinity proponent that exists, your familiarity with the finer points of your own argument is very weak and you have no fodder with which to make your case.

You can't show a single teaching of the Trinity concept from Scripture because it doesn't exist.

If it DID exist, this age-old controversy, that's gone on since around 300 A.D., wouldn't.

Face it. You're either emotionally chained to the concept due to those you know and love believing in it, or you're monetarily chained to it due to being paid to propagandize about it on the internet.

You have NO Biblical foundation to make your case.

It is what it is.

 

[Endure]

Not really because of talking about God the Father, there is only singular 1, or of God the Son there is singular 1, or of God the Holy Spirit there is singular 1.
Not sure why you’re not comprehending that?

Yes and 1 God, plus 1 God, plus 1 God = 3 Gods.

Why aren't you comprehending that?

The best of your apologists, and preachers, fully admit the Trinity doctrine cannot be understood. That is the very definition of "confusion" and God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

That is exactly why He put no teaching anywhere in the entire Bible that God is three persons. He loves man and does not wish to confuse him or make the Truth any more difficult to understand than is possible. If He were three people, He would have taught that in multiple places in the Bible, not just tossed little hints here and there without any explanation whatsoever.

The concept that God is ONE fully explains all of the mentions of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is literally the OTHER explanation for it that no Trinitarian wishes to mention.

Again, Isaiah chapters 40-48 showcase the Father declaring that He IS the Son many times. Isaiah 9:6 also declares this. No Trinitarian has any rebuttal for these facts but to claim that it doesn't mean what it says.

So, let's think about this. The Bible says that God is ONE many times, but Trinitarians declare that it doesn't mean what it plainly states. THEN the Bible says NOTHING about God being three persons, as MAN claims, and Trinitarians declare that it's just a mystery that we must accept from the mouth of man.

ABSOLUTE HOG WASH. That is all the Trinity LIE will ever be.

HOG WASH.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes and 1 God, plus 1 God, plus 1 God = 3 Gods.

I am not personally a Trinitarian. I'm actually Jewish, so Trinitarianism is noxious to me. Nevertheless, I always feel uncomfortable when I see anyone misrepresent what others believe. So here is the correction to your statement above.

Trinitarians are extremely clear that there is only one God. The opening line of the Nicene Creed is "We believe in ONE God." It does not teach "1 God plus 1 God plus 1 God." Rather it teaches that the One God is present in three distinct persons.

Now, does that make rational sense? Absolutely not. In fact, Trinitarian scholars themselves are the first to admit that the doctrine is counter intuitive. Nevertheless, that is what they teach, and they do not deserve to be misrepresented.

 

[Link]

I am not personally a Trinitarian. I'm actually Jewish, so Trinitarianism is noxious to me. Nevertheless, I always feel uncomfortable when I see anyone misrepresent what others believe. So here is the correction to your statement above.

Trinitarians are extremely clear that there is only one God. The opening line of the Nicene Creed is "We believe in ONE God." It does not teach "1 God plus 1 God plus 1 God." Rather it teaches that the One God is present in three distinct persons.

Now, does that make rational sense? Absolutely not. In fact, Trinitarian scholars themselves are the first to admit that the doctrine is counter intuitive. Nevertheless, that is what they teach, and they do not deserve to be misrepresented.

I don't think you are refuting what he is saying. He knows the trinity claim, he is showing why it's irrational. It's a paradox in terms.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't think you are refuting what he is saying. He knows the trinity claim, he is showing why it's irrational. It's a paradox in terms.

Of course it is.

That doesn't justify claiming that Trinitarianism is "1 God plus 1 God plus 1 God." Such a characterization of Trinitarianism is a lie.

 

[Link]

Of course it is.

That doesn't justify claiming that Trinitarianism is "1 God plus 1 God plus 1 God." Such a characterization of Trinitarianism is a lie.

It's not a lie. It's showing it claims there is one God, but really it's irrational, because Jesus is claimed to be divine, Holy spirit divine, and the Father/Creator Divine. This is three, it's just it's dishonesty to not see that way.

I don't think he is claiming they acknowledge it's 1 God + 1 God + 1 God. He is saying is reality, they are looking away from the obvious fact it is that.

Of course they say they believe in one God, but I think he is showing it's dishonesty. If Jesus was Divine, that makes two, add the holy spirit, that makes three.

 

[Link]

This is sort of like the Mahdi being Bab + Bahallah for me. Bahais can solve the contradiction by simply looking away from it. How both of them are the Mahdi does not make sense.

You won't find a single hadith saying "mahdiyain" (the two Mahdis) but there they are, saying both of them are the Qaim and Mahdi.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's not a lie.

It absolutely is a lie, which I explained and documented in my original reply. Scroll back.

 

[Link]

It absolutely is a lie, which I explained and documented in my original reply. Scroll back.

I saw what you wrote. It's not a lie per my view. And it's you rather who is being dishonest.

 

[Link]

Yes and 1 God, plus 1 God, plus 1 God = 3 Gods.

Why aren't you comprehending that?

The best of your apologists, and preachers, fully admit the Trinity doctrine cannot be understood. That is the very definition of "confusion" and God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).

That is exactly why He put no teaching anywhere in the entire Bible that God is three persons. He loves man and does not wish to confuse him or make the Truth any more difficult to understand than is possible. If He were three people, He would have taught that in multiple places in the Bible, not just tossed little hints here and there without any explanation whatsoever.

The concept that God is ONE fully explains all of the mentions of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is literally the OTHER explanation for it that no Trinitarian wishes to mention.

Again, Isaiah chapters 40-48 showcase the Father declaring that He IS the Son many times. Isaiah 9:6 also declares this. No Trinitarian has any rebuttal for these facts but to claim that it doesn't mean what it says.

So, let's think about this. The Bible says that God is ONE many times, but Trinitarians declare that it doesn't mean what it plainly states. THEN the Bible says NOTHING about God being three persons, as MAN claims, and Trinitarians declare that it's just a mystery that we must accept from the mouth of man.

ABSOLUTE HOG WASH. That is all the Trinity LIE will ever be.

HOG WASH.

Your words are honest. Better be honest and notorious, then a deceiver to yourself and others.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I saw what you wrote. It's not a lie per my view. And it's you rather who is being dishonest.

Sorry Link, but if you continue to insist that Trinitrianism teaches "1 God plus 1 God plus 1 God," then you are a liar. At any rate, I'm simply repeating myself at this point, so I'm moving on. You can have the last word if you wish.