Or, it tells us that you have no understanding of God with the evidence at hand.
But that goes without saying.
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For the love of god, can someone explain who created god?
- Thread starter FlyingTeaPot
- Start date
But that goes without saying.
Thanks. I'm impressed, myself, by my ability to create great created statements.
ExVasterist
Ex-Member of RF (I'm a Ghost)
As a just in case and to be honest, I've never really met the Utah Based ones, except that one overbearing missionary girl that the New Mexico missionaries agree was from Utah.
Most of the Negatives about Utah based Mormons actually came from Mormons that were born & raised outside Utah.
So in the grand scheme of things if I were to say as a Percentage, the good I've heard & witnessed is 99.9%, that 00.1% is that negative experience with that one missionary girl. So in reality, "somewhat positive" is a big understatement.
The best religions I've read, seen, and heard about (of course my opinion) is Mormons & Baha'i, all the others are the ones that definitely need to work on their "Peaceful and Christ-like" aspect, you guys have only a little to change and then you're golden.
Of course I can't prove it.
That's almost like me asking you to prove God exists but will that stop you from believing it?
If you haven't realized it. My statement is purely an exaggeration to prove how absurd and hypocritical theists are to their own ideals while easily using the same processes to invalidate others.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
The difference is I never would make a definitive statement about God’s existence.
Your statement was just absurd and you defense of it isn’t any better as it lumps all theists together while not recognizing the differences.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You were the one that brought up the claim of "alternative theories". I was not the only one to ask about them.. Now it appears that you have none.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I gave you one. Did you not understand it? A fossil that was seriously out of order would be a huge threat to the theory. Large scale violation of nested hierarchies would refute the theory. Heck, a dog giving birth to a cat would refute the theory By the way, there is no "change of kind" in evolution. That is a creationist concept.
I've already admitted that the statement itself wasn't a claim to facts.
Of course my statement is absurd. Is it almost as absurd as suggesting a God exists?
Uh oh? Did you just do the same thing I mentioned the other theist did when you condemned my absurd statement?
The hypocrisy raises its ugly head again!
ExVasterist
Ex-Member of RF (I'm a Ghost)
Seeing people once again using the word "Evidence" when associated with any deity.
How do you plan to acquire evidence that the science community will accept as evidence for a being that is mentioned in various religions to be Beyond all the laws of the cosmos & reality?
And just because the evidence hasn't been found or accepted, doesn't mean "therefore doesn't exist".
Religion is based ENTIRELY on Belief, not facts! People believe Faeries exist and that they can choose who they reveal themselves to, are gonna somehow force the faeries to show themselves?
People believe that Aliens abducted them, are you gonna somehow force the Aliens to make themselves revealed to the entire world?
Same thing with Deities. How do you intend to get ANY Deity to reveal themselves? Why should they listen to you? Why should they care about your opinions?
Another way of putting it: You are a newborn baby, God is a tank that is going to run you over. No one else can save you but you. How do you intend to make the tank stop?
Or even simpler: You despise cockroaches, you'd rather crush them for merely being there, the cockroach doesn't want to die, it is merely doing what it can to survive. It can't speak our language, we can't understand bug speech. How do you think this Cockroach that you want to kill can convince you not to kill it?
Yeah, many also try to use our own insignificance when compared to the vastness of the universe, we are blip in our planet, our solar system is a blip in our galaxy, our galaxy is a blip in our galaxy cluster, and our galaxy cluster is a blip in the universe.
In the same sense, the universe is a blip to God.
Try to rationalize it all you like, try to explain it away all you like, you will NEVER get the physical evidence that the science community with accept as evidence.
It is based on Belief, something that can't be explained, something that people FEEL is real, no they can't prove it, no they can't simply ask their Deity to show themselves to people who don't believe as they do - if they could do that, THERE'D BE NO SUCH THING AS HOLY WARS.
You don't KNOW someone 100%, you can't predict how they'll react to every single possible thing you do or say, you are friends with that person. Why? You BELIEVE that person is good enough to be your friend. There is no factual evidence to prove that person will be your friend for life, but you're still friends with that person regardless. Even if that friend does something really stupid, you still remain friends with that person.
Ever met someone who you THOUGHT was your friend but turned out be someone you abhor? What about a relationship that you believed was gonna work, but sadly it didn't?
Muslims don't believe Christians are right, and Christians think the same thing about Muslims. Do they know with absolute certainty? No, of course not. They both rely on their faith.
I dunno how else to explain it, but what people are failing to grasp is that is Belief is NOT fact. Faith & Knowledge are two completely different things.
Trust me, I WISH there was a way to prove whether or not ANY deity exists, I TRULY DO.
But there isn't. Religion can't prove to Atheists that their God is real cause "Supernatural" is not accepted as evidence, and Atheists can't prove that any deity doesn't exist cause they don't believe in "Supernatural" and you can't magically put Supernatural under a microscope.
How do you plan to acquire evidence that the science community will accept as evidence for a being that is mentioned in various religions to be Beyond all the laws of the cosmos & reality?
And just because the evidence hasn't been found or accepted, doesn't mean "therefore doesn't exist".
Religion is based ENTIRELY on Belief, not facts! People believe Faeries exist and that they can choose who they reveal themselves to, are gonna somehow force the faeries to show themselves?
People believe that Aliens abducted them, are you gonna somehow force the Aliens to make themselves revealed to the entire world?
Same thing with Deities. How do you intend to get ANY Deity to reveal themselves? Why should they listen to you? Why should they care about your opinions?
Another way of putting it: You are a newborn baby, God is a tank that is going to run you over. No one else can save you but you. How do you intend to make the tank stop?
Or even simpler: You despise cockroaches, you'd rather crush them for merely being there, the cockroach doesn't want to die, it is merely doing what it can to survive. It can't speak our language, we can't understand bug speech. How do you think this Cockroach that you want to kill can convince you not to kill it?
Yeah, many also try to use our own insignificance when compared to the vastness of the universe, we are blip in our planet, our solar system is a blip in our galaxy, our galaxy is a blip in our galaxy cluster, and our galaxy cluster is a blip in the universe.
In the same sense, the universe is a blip to God.
Try to rationalize it all you like, try to explain it away all you like, you will NEVER get the physical evidence that the science community with accept as evidence.
It is based on Belief, something that can't be explained, something that people FEEL is real, no they can't prove it, no they can't simply ask their Deity to show themselves to people who don't believe as they do - if they could do that, THERE'D BE NO SUCH THING AS HOLY WARS.
You don't KNOW someone 100%, you can't predict how they'll react to every single possible thing you do or say, you are friends with that person. Why? You BELIEVE that person is good enough to be your friend. There is no factual evidence to prove that person will be your friend for life, but you're still friends with that person regardless. Even if that friend does something really stupid, you still remain friends with that person.
Ever met someone who you THOUGHT was your friend but turned out be someone you abhor? What about a relationship that you believed was gonna work, but sadly it didn't?
Muslims don't believe Christians are right, and Christians think the same thing about Muslims. Do they know with absolute certainty? No, of course not. They both rely on their faith.
I dunno how else to explain it, but what people are failing to grasp is that is Belief is NOT fact. Faith & Knowledge are two completely different things.
Trust me, I WISH there was a way to prove whether or not ANY deity exists, I TRULY DO.
But there isn't. Religion can't prove to Atheists that their God is real cause "Supernatural" is not accepted as evidence, and Atheists can't prove that any deity doesn't exist cause they don't believe in "Supernatural" and you can't magically put Supernatural under a microscope.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
To all my dear creationist friends, I have a simple question which you might divine
In another thread, I came across a post whose author clearly believes that god created everything including us. What I want to understand is, how come creationists can suspend their disbelief in regards to the origin of god, and yet in the same breath vehemently deny the possibility of origin of life without a creator.
Can someone explain this apparent schizophrenic belief?
That's the flaw with the argument that the universe is SO complex that a creator is a REQUIREMENT. Any creator capable of creating the complex universe would have to be even MORE complex, and if the original argumernt is valid, then something even MORE complex would have even a greater REQUIREMNT that it have a creator as well.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
How does one 'suspend their belief in the alternative theories' if there has yet to be sufficient evidence to provide me with a reason to believe in those alternative theories in the first place? I can't 'suspend a belief' that I never held in the first place.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Then it is just as valid to say that universe never began to exist and thus would not require a creator. The challenge of the skeptic is to demonstarate that an eternally existent universe is a logical impossibility.
Scott C.
Just one guy
To all my dear creationist friends, I have a simple question which you might divine
In another thread, I came across a post whose author clearly believes that god created everything including us. What I want to understand is, how come creationists can suspend their disbelief in regards to the origin of god, and yet in the same breath vehemently deny the possibility of origin of life without a creator.
Can someone explain this apparent schizophrenic belief?
I believe in God and that belief explains my life. However, I have said before on here that there is one thing we all share in common, atheists and people of all faiths. We are all faced with the reality that stuff exists and we have no clue whatsoever either 1) how something has always existed or 2) if there was a time when nothing existed and then poof there was something. Fortunately, I don't require an answer to this question in order to believe in God.
I believe deeply in God and that conviction is faith, logic, and experience based. My religion answers a lot about the origin and purpose of life. But, even with that faith, I find it to be an absolute mind bender that anything exists at all, including God.
Mormon belief is that matter and spirit or intelligence are both eternal and not created. God, being eternal, acted upon existing matter to create a universe. No creation ex nihilo. That is a departure from traditional Christian thought, but we believe consistent with the Bible nevertheless. This belief implies that matter in some form has always existed. I see this beautiful and orderly universe as evidence of divine design. But I have no answer as to how or why it's possible that anything existed in the first place.
And yet, here we are, existing and surrounded by things. The seemingly impossible and unexplainable happened and continues every day. We are sharing a very crazy mind blowing existence as sentient beings on a planet floating around in space. We should all pause and marvel together for a moment on that thought.
Scott C.
Just one guy
I'm a seventh generation Mormon who was raised in Southern California. I've lived many years in Utah and many years in the mid-west. I've been around a lot of Mormons for a lot of years and from a lot of places. This includes those with several generations in my church and those who joined last week. My conclusion is that stereotypes regarding Utah Mormons or other Mormons are generally inaccurate. Different people just see and act differently based on all kinds of factors. I think of myself as being open minded. But this actually has nothing to do whatsoever with this thread.
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Since all Deities are culturally-specific(no Black Gods in America, or Japanese Gods in Australia) there is no doubt that all deities are created from the mind of man. Science has a very clear and testable understanding, of the evidence and logic, to prove the origin of modern homo erectus, and how he evolved(not created) from his earlier ancestors. The evidence for the origin of man(not life) is not based on belief, faith, or any self-serving bias mental construct. It is based on objective data and physical evidence. The evidence for the BB is also not based on any Religious spin-doctoring, or fallacy-riddled logic. It is based on the application of the scientific method of inquiry, inductive/deductive reasoning, intuition, and by following the evidence(Inflation, Quantum Fluctuation and Gravity, CMBR, Higgs and other Quantum Fields, etc.). Historically, Religions have always been a tool used to by leaders to control the masses, to keep them docile and compliant. Leaders use people's fear of death, to promise them everlasting life for their blind obedience. Once the numbers grow, the belief eventually becomes self-sustaining. Creationist are the opportunists that annex their similar beliefs to an already captive audience for mileage.
There is NO evidence(other than verbal and logical gymnastics) that supports the existence of any God, or that "God did it all". Ardent believers will avoid, deflect, shift the burden of proof, lie, or cover their eyes and ears, whenever they are forced to scrutinize their own belief. They are not interested in the obvious, and will even change reality to accommodate this belief. It is truly sad to see the effects of cognitive dissonance. Our entire reality is based on the principle of cause and effect. Stating that something is without cause, is creating a different reality. This assertion requires evidence, that is quickly avoided or deflected. Atheist simply do not believe in the existence of God(s), only because there is no evidence that even remotely suggest that there is. But if there was just one bit of objective evidence, Atheists would quickly become Theists. However, since most believer's reality is based on faith and not evidence or logic, their position can never change. This is why common sense, intuition, facts, evidence, and logic, will never trump blind faith. Don
There is NO evidence(other than verbal and logical gymnastics) that supports the existence of any God, or that "God did it all". Ardent believers will avoid, deflect, shift the burden of proof, lie, or cover their eyes and ears, whenever they are forced to scrutinize their own belief. They are not interested in the obvious, and will even change reality to accommodate this belief. It is truly sad to see the effects of cognitive dissonance. Our entire reality is based on the principle of cause and effect. Stating that something is without cause, is creating a different reality. This assertion requires evidence, that is quickly avoided or deflected. Atheist simply do not believe in the existence of God(s), only because there is no evidence that even remotely suggest that there is. But if there was just one bit of objective evidence, Atheists would quickly become Theists. However, since most believer's reality is based on faith and not evidence or logic, their position can never change. This is why common sense, intuition, facts, evidence, and logic, will never trump blind faith. Don
FlyingTeaPot
Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.
I think I need to crystallize what my question was (please note that of course I'm aware that there are many people whose beliefs are faith-based and not all creationists subscribe to the following argument) :
Creationist: We exist. Therefore we were created.
Me: Do you believe god exists?
Creationist: Yes.
Me: Then, by your logic, god must have been created, right?
Creationist: < Please write your answer here >
Creationist: We exist. Therefore we were created.
Me: Do you believe god exists?
Creationist: Yes.
Me: Then, by your logic, god must have been created, right?
Creationist: < Please write your answer here >
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, your false analogies and equivocation fallacies are just silly. The part that you seem to want to dilute or ignore, is that there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of any kind, supporting the existence of a God that can stand up to ANY Scientific scrutiny. That is different from having at least questionable, incomplete, or even debatable evidence. There is simply NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.
We can never be 100% certain about anything, even in science. But that doesn't mean that all silly beliefs receives carte blanche, without at least some evidence. Like most believers, the old unfalsifiable "absolute" card is drawn whenever logic threatens their beliefs. Since no one can be 100% percent certain of anything, then your position can never be 100% wrong. Another blatant fallacy, since you ignore degrees of certainty. Is your faith always 100% certain. If it is, then you are a God. You also neglected to mention that there must have been some evidence for you to believe that a relationship was possible in the first place(common interests, mutual feelings, mutual acceptance and agreements). Also, there is no such thing as absolute certainty, or absolute morality. Unless you can give me an example.
What is your point? Are you suggesting that the scientific community should accept your position and logic, because the evidence is "Beyond all the laws of the cosmos & reality". Sorry, science is NOT faith-based. It does not accept evidence that is based on false cause, ad populum, straw man or from ignorance arguments. Science does not concern itself with trying to prove subjective experiences, myths, beliefs, and fairytales. It is ironic that you criticise those who do not expand their reality to include myths, superstitions, God(s), miracles, talking animals, and the supernatural, yet you seek scientific validation to give your position the perception of rational truth. Go figure! Don
To all my dear creationist friends, I have a simple question which you might divine
In another thread, I came across a post whose author clearly believes that god created everything including us. What I want to understand is, how come creationists can suspend their disbelief in regards to the origin of god, and yet in the same breath vehemently deny the possibility of origin of life without a creator.
Can someone explain this apparent schizophrenic belief?
FlyingTeaPot,
What you are asking is very simple, God has been alive for all eternity. He then created the first life, which was Jesus, His only begotten son, and the second cause, God, The Almighty being the first cause.
The fact is that God’s Personal, Proper Name is Jehovah, which means; He causes to become, Exodus 3:13-15.
Many Bibles have the Name Jehovah here, which, in Hebrew was, what is called The Tetragrammaton, YHWH, or JHVH.
Jehovah is King of Eternity, Immortal, which means that He cannot die, and the only True God, 1Timothy 1:17.
Also He knows everything, including any person who asks insincere questions, not really wanting to know the Truth, John 4:23,24, 17:17, 2Thessalonians 2:7-13.
I literally only came here to say this. Take my likes.
edit; OP;, I am not a creationist just an observer but perhaps a better question is if God doesn't need a creator ask them why then the Universe might not have the same properties of being eternal.
But I might be biased as this is the position of Hinduism generally. The Big Bang was just the start of this iteration of the known Universe... doesn't mean nothing ever existed before it.
Truely Enlightened,
I am very sorry to inform you that you have just the attitude that Jesus was speaking about at Luke 10:21, which says that God’s words cannot be understood by the wise and intellectual ones, like yourself, but can be understood by babes, Matthew 11:25.
Another requirement is to be humble, like a child, asking questions, wanting to know things, Matthew 18:1-7. You seem to be one who wants to be a stumbling block.
Another requirement to understand God’s words is a good heart, which it seems you are lacking, Matthew 13:13-15, 15:18,19.
Unless you change your attitude you cannot understand because you see with fleshly eyes, you cannot see with spirit, which you must have to understand. This precept is explained perfectly at 1Corinthians 2:1-15.
There is another reason for not being able to understand even simple things of God, that a person is just too wicked, which I hope is not your problem, Daniel 12:10, Isaiah 26:10.
It would behoove you to do a little genuflection, and maybe God will allow you to see, because understanding God’s message to mankind is your only hope of a future, according to the Holy Scriptures, 2Thessalonians 2:7-13.
If you truely want to know about God’s Holy writings, Please ask a question, because I can see clearly that the Bible is Terra Incognita to you.