For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[Subduction Zone]

I believe there is no evidence that the Exodus is a myth. Remember Wikipedia is just information supplied by people who have their own opinions.

No, that is not the case with Wikipedia at all. It can be easily edited, but those edits need to hold up to scrutiny. And usually one can follow the links.

I have noticed that when Bible literalists cannot support their beliefs that they try to insult the evidence that others support. The fact is that there is no archaeological evidence for the Exodus and there should be if one reads the Bible literally. It is a case where a lack of evidence for an idea is evidence against it.

 

[Muffled]

Apparently it was a very poorly constructed 'shield', because it allowed a deceptive talking serpent into their midst.

I believe Hel was privy to Asia along with the other gods. As a shape shifter she could just fly in as an eagle so it would be difficult to prevent her/him from doing so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe I expect the poles to change, continents to submerge and others rise. Deserts will become jungles and jungles deserts.

I believe you are talking about the extinguishing of the earth and Jesus said that He won't even be around to experience it.

The poles change regularly. That has never been the end of the Earth. Deserts and jungles are constantly changing their boundaries. That has never been the end of the Earth either.

And Jesus said that he would be back during the lifetime of at least some of the apostles. Tell me, how many of them are still alive today?

 

[Muffled]

No, that is not the case with Wikipedia at all. It can be easily edited, but those edits need to hold up to scrutiny. And usually one can follow the links.

I have noticed that when Bible literalists cannot support their beliefs that they try to insult the evidence that others support. The fact is that there is no archaeological evidence for the Exodus and there should be if one reads the Bible literally. It is a case where a lack of evidence for an idea is evidence against it.

I believe that has been said about cities mentioned in the Bible as existing in Istrael. Then later evidence emerged proving the cities exist. I believe you can't prove anything simply because you lack information (outside the Bible) about it.

 

[Muffled]

The poles change regularly. That has never been the end of the Earth. Deserts and jungles are constantly changing their boundaries. That has never been the end of the Earth either.

And Jesus said that he would be back during the lifetime of at least some of the apostles. Tell me, how many of them are still alive today?

I believe the evidence is that there can be cataclysmic change as well as slow change.

I believe that is a misinterpretation. I believe he meant the people who see the signs would see the return of Jesus in their lifetimes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe that has been said about cities mentioned in the Bible as existing in Istrael. Then later evidence emerged proving the cities exist. I believe you can't prove anything simply because you lack information (outside the Bible) about it.

That is hardly evidence for the Exodus. The fact that the Bible is right sometimes is not evidence that it is right always. Evidence for smaller older migrations can be found. Yet no evidence can be found for the Exodus. This is a case where evidence should exist and it does not. It is a case of absence of evidence being evidence against.

 

[Muffled]

Genetics gives us very strong evidence that the human race was never just two people, nor just 8 people who survived on a boat.

"Tallying up the number of ancestors using this method consistently returns a total minimum population size of about 10,000 individuals: approximately 8,000 ancestors are needed to explain SNP diversity in sub-Saharan Africa, and about 2,000 ancestors for everyone else. SNP diversity in humans is far too large to result from one ancestral couple at any time in the last 200,000 years – we descend from a population."
Adam, Eve, and Human Population Genetics: Signature in the SNPs

I believe that is correct and the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is simply about the restoration of the Adamic race. There is genetic evidence that the Adamic race existed long before Adam & Eve but that does not guarantee continuity except through Adam and Eve.

I believe I am mostly descended from the Caucasian race which according to Norse myth is an alien race. It appears from the genetics that the race arrived somewhere around 10,000 BC.

Oriental myth also claims alien origin.

I t would appear to me that the African race is most likely the indigent race of this world.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe the evidence is that there can be cataclysmic change as well as slow change.

I believe that is a misinterpretation. I believe he meant the people who see the signs would see the return of Jesus in their lifetimes.

You do not appear to understand what is and what is not evidence. And of course you believe that is a misinterpretation. Christians always believe that when the Bible is shown to be wrong. Or in other words, you read the Bible literally until it is shown to be obviously wrong You are being inconsistent in your interpretation of the Bible.

 

[Muffled]

That is hardly evidence for the Exodus. The fact that the Bible is right sometimes is not evidence that it is right always. Evidence for smaller older migrations can be found. Yet no evidence can be found for the Exodus. This is a case where evidence should exist and it does not. It is a case of absence of evidence being evidence against.

I believe you should look for a footprint in the sand because you are so good at chasing shadows.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe that is correct and the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is simply about the restoration of the Adamic race. There is genetic evidence that the Adamic race existed long before Adam & Eve but that does not guarantee continuity except through Adam and Eve.

I believe I am mostly descended from the Caucasian race which according to Norse myth is an alien race. It appears from the genetics that the race arrived somewhere around 10,000 BC.

Oriental myth also claims alien origin.

I t would appear to me that the African race is most likely the indigent race of this world.

If you have evidence that supports your claims you really need to start to provide links to it. When you handwave in an argument as you have been doing it only takes a handwave to refute it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe you should look for a footprint in the sand because you are so good at chasing shadows.

Projection. You need to try face up to the fact that the evidence that should be there for your beliefs do not exist.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I believe that is correct and the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is simply about the restoration of the Adamic race. There is genetic evidence that the Adamic race existed long before Adam & Eve but that does not guarantee continuity except through Adam and Eve.

I believe I am mostly descended from the Caucasian race which according to Norse myth is an alien race. It appears from the genetics that the race arrived somewhere around 10,000 BC.

Oriental myth also claims alien origin.

I t would appear to me that the African race is most likely the indigent race of this world.

The evidence demonstrates that Africans moved out of Africa and established most, if not all, of the other populations we see today. That includes Europeans and Asians.

 

[Muffled]

You do not appear to understand what is and what is not evidence. And of course you believe that is a misinterpretation. Christians always believe that when the Bible is shown to be wrong. Or in other words, you read the Bible literally until it is shown to be obviously wrong You are being inconsistent in your interpretation of the Bible.

I believe you have no evidence that I am being inconsistent. BTW there is no mention of the apostles so I suppose that is an inference.

 

[Muffled]

The evidence demonstrates that Africans moved out of Africa and established most, if not all, of the other populations we see today. That includes Europeans and Asians.

I believe Africans migrated and certainly that DNA is reflected in our populations today. My wife is Caucasian but she has 1.9 % Nigerian DNA.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe you have no evidence that I am being inconsistent. BTW there is no mention of the apostles so I suppose that is an inference.

That is too bad. If you can't face up to your errors you will never learn from them.

And you do not appear to know who Jesus was talking to when he made that particular prophesy. Do you think that anyone that he was talking to at the time, apostle or not, is still alive today? If not the prophecy failed.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I believe Africans migrated and certainly that DNA is reflected in our populations today. My wife is Caucasian but she has 1.9 % Nigerian DNA.

That's a bit of a misnomer. If we compare the genomes of any two people from any two regions on the globe they will share more than 99% of their DNA.

 

[Deeje]

In what way can chimps be considered capable of of morality? Examples please.

I have bred dogs for years....I have not seen this moral sense that you claim. If I feed my dogs together, I never see one standing back so the other guy can have his dinner. I don't see the runt in a litter being given consideration when pups are in for a feed. Dogs and chimps will do in public what no human would do. Give us an example of this morality in animals....

"Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper." Wikipedia

Tell me how an animal differentiates between right and wrong? How does an animals make decisions about morality? Research and life experience tells me that you have no grounds for that general assertion.

Just waiting for your learned reply ST....

 

[SkepticThinker]

In what way can chimps be considered capable of of morality? Examples please.

Of course other animals have a sense of morality; it just isn’t identical to ours. I’m not sure how you could think otherwise.

Many studies have been carried out on morality in the rest of the animal kingdom.

The most interesting studies I can think of, off the top of my head, are studies on fairness; a major component of morality.

So they have two dogs in cages, adjacent to one another, so each can see the other, and the human trainers. Before the experiment began, the dogs were trained to push a button. Both of these dogs are in adjacent cages, each containing their own button. There were two stages to the test. First, the dogs were commanded to push the button, which they would do with their paws. One dog received a treat for pushing the button, while the other one did not receive a treat. In the second stage of the test, both dogs were commanded to push the button, and one dog received a “special” treat (a piece of meat) while the other dog received a “regular” treat (dog kibble). In both stages, the dog getting the worse deal (no treat, or kibble rather than meat), stopped co-operating with the trainers when they realized the other dog was getting a better deal than they were. They stopped pushing the button. But if the dogs were alone, they would continue to push the button, even if they only received the “regular” treat for doing so.

The researchers involved in the study noted that, “This showed that the fact that they themselves had not received a reward was not the only reason why they stopped to cooperate with the trainer,” says co-author Jennifer Essler. “They refuse to cooperate because the other one got something, but they themselves did not.”
Wolves and Dogs Both Have a Sense of Fairness | Smart News | Smithsonian

When the same test was performed on wolves, they would simply walk away if they perceived the situation to be unfair.

“For some of them it was a really, really quick and strong response,” Essler tells McGrath. “One of the wolves stopped working after the third trial of not receiving anything while his partner received something. I think he was so frustrated he even broke the apparatus.”

Furthermore, after the tests were completed, the dogs and wolves that thought they were being treated unfairly shunned the other dogs or wolves that they felt had been treated better than they had. The wolves even held a grudge against the experimenters, after the testing was complete (though the dogs did not).

___________________________________________________________________

When capuchin monkeys are tested in a similar fashion, they also have been found to display a sense of fairness, though not quite the same sense of fairness as the dogs displayed. So they take put two capuchin monkeys side by side, only instead of pushing a button, they’re each given a small rock to exchange with the researchers (along with either performing a task, or not performing any task) in return for food. They would receive either a slice of cucumber (the “regular” treat) or a grape (the “special” treat). The capuchins who thought they were being treated unfairly (i.e. received a cucumber while the capuchin beside him was rewarded with a grape), not only would not eat the cucumber, but in many cases threw it back at the researchers and then continued to hold a grudge against the researchers and refused to engage in future exchanges with them.

Monkeys Show Sense Of Fairness, Study Says

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here’s one more, where researchers tested chimps for a sense of fairness and equality, then found similar results when they carried out the same test on 3-5 year old human children.

"Their reactions struck me as very similar to the chimps," Proctor said. "They would say things like 'You got more stickers than me,' or 'I want more stickers.'"
The findings suggest chimp and human sense of fairness aren't so different, Milinski said.
"I am not surprised we are so similar to chimps. We are not unique," Milinski told LiveScience.”
Chimps Have a Sense of Fairness

I have bred dogs for years....I have not seen this moral sense that you claim. If I feed my dogs together, I never see one standing back so the other guy can have his dinner. I don't see the runt in a litter being given consideration when pups are in for a feed. Dogs and chimps will do in public what no human would do. Give us an example of this morality in animals....

Nobody is claiming that other animals share the exact same morality as humans, that wouldn’t make sense. Rather, they have their own sense of morality that is applicable in their world.

"Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper." Wikipedia

Tell me how an animal differentiates between right and wrong? How does an animals make decisions about morality? Research and life experience tells me that you have no grounds for that general assertion.

Published research says otherwise.

How does an animal not make decisions about morality? You really don’t think other social animals especially; don’t have any need to differentiate between right and wrong actions? Why would you think that’s exclusive to humans? You really don’t think the other apes have any sense of morality? On what basis? Do you not think that other animals have feelings?

Your assertion is the groundless one. You really need to do some more research on this topic.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'm putting all the evidences we've discussed, together

(Sorry, my bullet #’s messed up somehow):

1. Vast herds — millions — of grazing animals discovered within the muck fields by gold hunters in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (delicate flowers like buttercups, that only grow in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

1. This project, completed by physic students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion:

‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’


Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian


Further information:


Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.

The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.


The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.

Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

1. To summarize, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that this ratio is perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy.

This is powerful evidence: How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such perfect dimensions? Fortunate guessing?

1. Furthermore, the Bible clearly states, in Psalms 104, that the Flood was the cause of Earth’s mountains reaching such great heights. This would mean the high mountainous ranges we have today, like the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, and others, did not exist before the Flood; they are relatively young in formation. Not that the rocks are young, but that the features they form, are new, geologically speaking.

What do we see? We observe crisp, well-defined features! If these mountains were millions of years old, we would see weathered, rounded features, due to the extreme wind and other erosion forces that they constantly endure. But we don’t! (This evidence is the easiest of all the geological facts to see...yet to me the most overlooked.)


5. [related to #4]The marine creatures discovered on the tops of many mountain ranges, even on Mt. Everest — gigantic clams, some measuring 5 feet or more across, found in the closed position, indicating (again) that these creatures experienced a catastrophic event, leading to their quick death. Many were exposed....if they’re millions of years old, why aren’t they eroded, also? Because these particular ones died at the Flood!


6) The many Flood legends from around the world (exceeding 250) have similarities, some very striking, indicating a common source.

7) The Chinese character for "boat" comprises three radically different symbols: 'vessel', 'mouth' (representing a person), and the number ''8'. Why is this significant? Because there were 8 people who survived the Flood in the Ark. Some ancient Semitic person thought the Flood Event was worthy enough, to incorporate it into their language, helping others to remember the Chinese word for boat. They didn't have a Bible to get the idea from, and I doubt Moses knew any Chinese people!

(Are there more languages that incorporate any Genesis Flood facts? Other than Hebrew?)

More to come!

Maybe I should start a new thread? What do think, @Deeje, @Misunderstood, @nPeace ?

This may not be seen by very many.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm putting all the evidences we've discussed, together

(Sorry, my bullet #’s messed up somehow):

1. Vast herds — millions — of grazing animals discovered within the muck fields by gold hunters in the Alaskan and Yukon regions. In the Siberian permafrost, a few have been discovered upright, with food (delicate flowers like buttercups, that only grow in temperate climates) discovered still unchewed in their mouths, like the Berezovka Mammoth. (They died instantly, not from a slow-moving ice age!)

1. This project, completed by physic students of the University of Leicester, provides an interesting conclusion:

‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’


Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian


Further information:


Noah’s Ark was the focus of a major 1993 scientific study headed by Dr. Seon Hong at the world-class ship research center KRISO, based in Daejeon, South Korea. Dr. Hong’s team compared twelve hulls of different proportions to discover which design was most practical. No hull shape was found to significantly outperform the 4,300-year-old biblical design. In fact, the Ark’s careful balance is easily lost if the proportions are modified, rendering the vessel either unstable, prone to fracture, or dangerously uncomfortable.

The research team found that the proportions of Noah’s Ark carefully balanced the conflicting demands of stability (resistance to capsizing), comfort (“seakeeping”), and strength. In fact, the Ark has the same proportions as a modern cargo ship.


The study also confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 100 ft (30 m). Dr. Hong is now director general of the facility and claims “life came from the sea,” obviously not the words of a creationist on a mission to promote the worldwide Flood. Endorsing the seaworthiness of Noah’s Ark obviously did not damage Dr. Hong’s credibility.

Dr. Seon Won Hong was principal research scientist when he headed up the Noah’s Ark investigation. In May 2005 Dr. Hong was appointed director general of MOERI (formerly KRISO). Dr. Hong earned a B.S. degree in naval architecture from Seoul National University and a Ph.D. degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

1. Coupled with that, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6-to-1 ratio of length to width, and 10-to-1 ratio of length to height, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that this ratio is perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy.

This is powerful evidence: How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such perfect dimensions? Fortunate guessing?

1. Furthermore, the Bible clearly states, in Psalms 104, that the Flood was the cause of Earth’s mountains reaching such great heights. This would mean the high mountainous ranges we have today, like the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, and others, did not exist before the Flood; they are relatively young in formation. Not that the rocks are young, but that the features they form, are new, geologically speaking.

What do we see? We observe crisp, well-defined features! If these mountains were millions of years old, we would see weathered, rounded features, due to the extreme wind and other erosion forces that they constantly endure. But we don’t! (This evidence is the easiest of all the geological facts to see...yet to me the most overlooked.)


5. [related to #4]The marine creatures discovered on the tops of many mountain ranges, even on Mt. Everest — gigantic clams, some measuring 5 feet or more across, found in the closed position, indicating (again) that these creatures experienced a catastrophic event, leading to their quick death. Many were exposed....if they’re millions of years old, why aren’t they eroded, also? Because these particular ones died at the Flood!


6) The many Flood legends from around the world (exceeding 250) have similarities, some very striking, indicating a common source.

7) The Chinese character for "boat" comprises three radically different symbols: 'vessel', 'mouth' (representing a person), and the number ''8'. Why is this significant? Because there were 8 people who survived the Flood in the Ark. Some ancient Semitic person thought the Flood Event was worthy enough, to incorporate it into their language, helping others to remember the Chinese word for boat. They didn't have a Bible to get the idea from, and I doubt Moses knew any Chinese people!

(Are there more languages that incorporate any Genesis Flood facts? Other than Hebrew?)

More to come!

Maybe I should start a new thread? What do think, @Deeje, @Misunderstood, @nPeace ?

This may not be seen by very many.

So much nonsense. Would you care to go over this Gish Gallop of errors, falsehoods and exaggerations one at a time?