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Flogging the adulterer - Sura of Light

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see we are in that Judgement day.

Regards Tony

Of course you do.....you are a Baha'i. Nuff said :rolleyes:

The problem is Muslims see Muhammad as the final prophet and the Quran God's final and perfect revelation. That understanding is based on the Quran, though a misunderstanding IMHO.

In regards Islam abrogating all other religions many Muslims and scholars are clear:

Islam abrogates all the previous religions, Christianity and Judaism included. And hence if the Jews and Christians do not accept Islam, they are the losers. Whatever good deeds they have will be scattered like dust on the Day of Judgement. We will only quote the Islamic position is on this issue. In The Reliance Of The Traveller, a book of Islamic jurisprudence, we read:


Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested by many verses of the Holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of Islam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Koran. Both points are worthy of attention for English-speaking Muslims, who are occasionally exposed to erroneous theories advanced by some teachers and Koran translators affirming these religions' validity but denying not mentioning their abrogatoin, or that is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions, such as "Christianity" or "Judaism", are acceptable to Allah Most High after He sent the final Messenger (Allah bless him give him peace) to the entire world. This is a matter over which there is no disagreement among Islamic scholars....[1]



Please note that there is no disagreement among the Islamic scholars concerning the abrogation of previous religions like Judiasm and Christian and that believing in their validity is a form of kufr.


Abrogation Of Judiasm & Christianity By Islam

Niblo, we have a lot to consider as Allah is more than a Name.

I ask when has Allah ever been silent and when has a New Message been given which has been fully endorsed by the New Message. Has not history shown that the believers views are indeed abrogated?

Regards Tony
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
The problem is Muslims see Muhammad as the final prophet and the Quran God's final and perfect revelation. That understanding is based on the Quran, though a misunderstanding IMHO.

In regards Islam abrogating all other religions many Muslims and scholars are clear:

Islam abrogates all the previous religions, Christianity and Judaism included. And hence if the Jews and Christians do not accept Islam, they are the losers. Whatever good deeds they have will be scattered like dust on the Day of Judgement. We will only quote the Islamic position is on this issue. In The Reliance Of The Traveller, a book of Islamic jurisprudence, we read:


Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested by many verses of the Holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of Islam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Koran. Both points are worthy of attention for English-speaking Muslims, who are occasionally exposed to erroneous theories advanced by some teachers and Koran translators affirming these religions' validity but denying not mentioning their abrogatoin, or that is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions, such as "Christianity" or "Judaism", are acceptable to Allah Most High after He sent the final Messenger (Allah bless him give him peace) to the entire world. This is a matter over which there is no disagreement among Islamic scholars....[1]



Please note that there is no disagreement among the Islamic scholars concerning the abrogation of previous religions like Judiasm and Christian and that believing in their validity is a form of kufr.


Abrogation Of Judiasm & Christianity By Islam

You have quoted the opinion of one scholar; namely Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri. Those who share his opinion have yet to explain why the Christian and Jewish wives of Muslims have the right - under Islamic Law, based on the Qur'an and Sunnah - to retain, and to practise their respective religions. Are we to suppose that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) lied when He promised this: ‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida 69).

You may choose to make a liar of my Lord, but I do not. Let me repeat...He does not break His promises....no matter that some desire it.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You have quoted the opinion of one scholar; namely Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri. Those who share his opinion have yet to explain why the Christian and Jewish wives of Muslims have the right - under Islamic Law, based on the Qur'an and Sunnah - to retain, and to practise their respective religions. Are we to suppose that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) lied when He promised this: ‘For the (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians – those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good deeds – there is no fear: they will not grieve.’ (Al-Ma’ida 69).

You may choose to make a liar of my Lord, but I do not. Let me repeat...He does not break His promises....no matter that some desire it.

There is no equality though. In countires under Islamic rule, a Christian or Jew can convert Islam, but a Muslim can not convert to Christianity or Judaism. Actions always speak louder than words.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I have been on Baha'i assemblies for twenty years. The assembly tries to reconcile the couple. There are no fines.
Seems to me that if adultery has already been committed, reconciliation would be a monumental task. But good on you for trying. In my experience, once it gets to the couple asking for help, it's too late. Divorce rate is high in all communities, and sometimes, quite frankly, it's more just correcting a mistake than anything else. People jump into marriage unprepared for the challenges. Another reason to put off having kids for a few years.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
There is no equality though. In countires under Islamic rule, a Christian or Jew can convert Islam, but a Muslim can not convert to Christianity or Judaism. Actions always speak louder than words.

It is estimated that around 18% of the world’s 1.8 billion Muslims live in countries that permit the killing of apostates. I have no idea – and neither do you – what percentage of this minority group are eager to abandon Islam; and would rush to do so, were it not for fear of reprisal. But let’s be clear: If only one disaffected Muslim – just the one – is killed for leaving the Faith, then that is one too many.

Some would have us believe that the punishment ordained for apostasy is death; but this is not the case.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says: ‘As for those who believe, then reject the faith, then believe again, then reject the faith again and become increasingly defiant, Allāh will not forgive them, nor will He guide them on any path. (Prophet), tell such hypocrites that a grievous punishment awaits them.’ (Al-Nisa: 137-138).

If death is the ordained punishment for apostasy, then why do these verses not say so? Indeed, they are rendered nonsense by the notion that one who rejects the faith must be killed; for how can a dead person accept what he once rejected; reject it again; and grow in defiance?!!

Although the Qur’an speaks of apostasy more than a dozen times; nowhere does it authorise an earthly punishment for abandoning faith. On the contrary, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) reserves for Himself the right to judge such behaviour; and to do so on the Day of Judgement.

Puritans would have us believe that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) required the death sentence for apostasy. A favourite ḥādīth of theirs is this: ‘Ibn Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Whoever changes his religion, kill him.”’ (Sahih Al-Bukhari).

I opine that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said no such thing; and that this ḥādīth – and others like it – was fabricated to support corrupt rulers and governments; and is now being employed for that very purpose.

Here are my reasons:

The Qur’an was revealed throughout the Prophet’s life. At no time was he given permission to judge, or to execute, apostates. On the contrary, the Qur’an makes it perfectly clear that his role was to convey the message – to preach and teach the Faith, as expressed in the Qur’an – and nothing more. He was NOT to impose it by force:

‘Allāh bears witness that there is no god but He, as do the angels and those who have knowledge. He upholds justice. There is no god but Him, the Almighty, the All Wise. True Religion, in Allāh’s eyes, is (devotion to Him alone). Those who were given the Scripture disagreed out of rivalry, only after they had been given knowledge - if anyone denies Allāh’s revelations, Allāh is swift to take account- if they argue with you (Prophet), say: “I have devoted myself to Allāh alone and so have my followers.”

‘Ask those who were given the Scripture, as well as those without one: “Do you too devote yourselves to Him alone?” If they do, they will be guided, but if they turn away, YOUR ONLY DUTY IS TO CONVEY THE MESSAGE. Allāh is aware of His servants.’ (Al-‘Imran: 18-20); and again: ‘Obey Allāh, obey the Messenger, and always be on your guard: if you pay no heed, bear in mind that the SOLE DUTY of Our Messenger is to DELIVER THE MESSAGE clearly.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 92).

The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was given no authority to enforce belief; no authority to kill a person simply for changing his religion. Given the restrictions placed upon him by his Lord, it is unthinkable that he would assume authority for himself – that he would usurp the Exalted’s role as sole judge in this matter. This is why I discount all aḥādīth that suggest the contrary (and by the way, I am not a Qur’anist!). My argument is supported by the fact that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) did not order the death of a single person for apostasy alone.

Let me repeat: The Qur’an stresses freedom of conscience as one of Islam’s fundamental tenets:

‘There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allāh has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allāh is all hearing and all knowing.’ (Al-Baqara: 256); and again: ‘(Prophet), follow what has been revealed to you of your Lord’s Scripture: there is no changing His words, nor can you find any refuge except with Him. Content yourself with those who pray to their Lord morning and evening, seeking His approval, and do not let your eyes turn away from them out of desire for the attractions of this worldly life: do not yield to those whose hearts We have made heedless of Our Qur’an, those who follow their own low desires, those whose ways are unbridled. Say: “Now the truth has come from your Lord”: let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so.’ (Al-Kahf: 29).

Apostasy laws are enforced for political rather than religious reasons. Autocratic religious states (and organisations) have always used the threat of punishment as a means of control. When the Church was a power to be reckoned with – when it controlled every aspect of a believer’s life – it did not hesitate to punish apostasy (and heresy) with death. Only when the Church lost its secular powers were people free to think, and to do, as they pleased.

All Muslims consider the Qur’an to be the very the word of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). This is why it is considered to be the primary and supreme source of jurisprudence in Islam. The Sunnah (the practice of Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) comes next. Both leave no doubt that apostasy – of itself – is not a punishable by death. The only justification for punishing an apostate is when that person goes on to commit a criminal offence – such as murder; theft; treason or some form of war crime.

It amuses me to see Islamophobes and extremists at odds with the Qur’an on this issue. In order to portray their own perverted theological, or political, viewpoint both go to great lengths to misrepresent its clear verses. Both regurgitate the same fallacious arguments, and offer them as ‘authentic’ Islam.

Apostasy laws have been borrowed from older scriptures. They have no basis in the Qur’an or Sunnah. This is why clerics who espouse such extremist beliefs show continued reluctance to debate Muslim scholars and intellectuals on this issue.

The Qur’an upholds Freedom of Conscience in the clearest of terms. It is the duplicity - and political insecurity - of extremist clerics, and of the corrupt governments they support, that gives excuse for oppressive regimes to punish dissent (apostasy).

Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes:

‘The vast majority of Muslims are not puritans, but they practice a traditional form of Islam based on inherited beliefs and practices that is distinctively different from the puritan creed. For instance, the puritans prohibit all forms of music, and yet there is no Muslim country that is not flooded with all kinds of Western and non-Western music. The puritans prohibit women from seeking employment outside the home, and yet women make up a sizable percentage of the workforce in most Muslim countries. The story of the puritans told in this book is the story of the exception to the mainstream in Islam. Nevertheless, the Muslim mainstream is targeted by puritans. The puritan creed is strongly evangelical, and through proselytizing, the puritans hope to convert the mainstream to what they consider to be the true Islam. In my view, this is where moderate Muslims must play a critical role. For the reasons discussed, the juristic class will not be able to play its historical role in marginalizing the puritans. The burden must fall on moderate Muslims to articulate the alternative to the puritan menace.

‘According to moderates, God’s light is not owned by anyone, and so Muslims and non-Muslims can step into the light together. They can share a partnership in which they come to know one another. In the process, they can cooperate to establish virtue and mercy on this earth - they can cooperate to prevent the corruption of the earth through the ugliness of ignorance, hate, war, and destruction. Moderates believe that supremacy belongs only to God. Therefore, when they come to invite the other to step into the light, they do so with utter humility - the humility of knowing that it is impossible to avoid corrupting the earth, and also impossible to achieve any degree of Godliness on this earth, unless they can come to know the other. It is this, the knowledge of the other, that is the requisite for the Divine gift of peace.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists.’)

In another work he writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
What is the Baha'i punishment for gay Baha'is who indulge? (Assuming there is such a thing as a gay Baha'i)
I don't know, but sex outside of marriage is an offence which is punished by a fine imposed by the Local Spiritual Assembly (House of Justice), all this happening (I guess) once there is Bahai Control in that locality.

And so what happens if Gays have sex is a guess for me, at this time.

And what sentence would be imposed by a Bahai House of Justice in the event of adultery is probably written in the Aqdas but not revealed.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't know, but sex outside of marriage is an offence which is punished by a fine imposed by the Local Spiritual Assembly (House of Justice), all this happening (I guess) once there is Bahai Control in that locality.

And so what happens if Gays have sex is a guess for me, at this time.

And what sentence would be imposed by a Bahai House of Justice in the event of adultery is probably written in the Aqdas but not revealed.

That is not correct. You are making up situations based on your current world views.

They can not preguess/predetermined what the future will be.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't know, but sex outside of marriage is an offence which is punished by a fine imposed by the Local Spiritual Assembly (House of Justice), all this happening (I guess) once there is Bahai Control in that locality.

And so what happens if Gays have sex is a guess for me, at this time.

And what sentence would be imposed by a Bahai House of Justice in the event of adultery is probably written in the Aqdas but not revealed.

Laws that can't be enforced, or aren't enforced. You and I could write some of those. Anyone could.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Seems to me that if adultery has already been committed, reconciliation would be a monumental task. But good on you for trying. In my experience, once it gets to the couple asking for help, it's too late. Divorce rate is high in all communities, and sometimes, quite frankly, it's more just correcting a mistake than anything else. People jump into marriage unprepared for the challenges. Another reason to put off having kids for a few years.

Some relationships do recover despite adultery being committed but there is no doubt the marriage is in jeopardy once this line as been crossed.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of ensuring we are emotionally prepared for marriage rather than just looking for the right person as per your earlier post. I see many children and families in general practice and the impact some relationship break ups have on children.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Some relationships do recover despite adultery being committed but there is no doubt the marriage is in jeopardy once this line as been crossed.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of ensuring we are emotionally prepared for marriage rather than just looking for the right person as per your earlier post. I see many children and families in general practice and the impact some relationship break ups have on children.

Usually about one third of my classes were children of divorce. The counselor had a lot of resources for it, including structured peer counseling. I used that during the small amount of time I spent as a school counselor. Sometimes the kids were just happy to have their parents apart, as it stopped all the yelling and screaming. Not always a bad thing.

Getting a marriage license or indeed just getting married is too easy, in my view. But it goes back to when you marry, not who you marry. Some folks will never be ready.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Laws that can't be enforced, or aren't enforced. You and I could write some of those. Anyone could.
True dat!
A typical example might be the 'Free bicycles for Oldbadger's' bill which I would love to be enacted.

But where a religion would 'seek' to become a World Order, with World Control, then it's fair to make mention of its ideas about what would be law.

In country's with Islamic controls and laws it's surely necessary to abide by its laws. One of my mates worked in an Islamic country (under contract) to its Air Force and he did like his beer! There was an enormous 'bonded' compound where all the contracted foreigners lived. They could drink alcohol there, play cards etc and if they could find a suitable friend .... who knows?

But once outside that compound, Beware!

I don't like the idea of sentences such as flogging, but I don't like sentences like execution by drug-cocktails either. Neither do I like prison sentences which involve locking up offenders in undermanned prisons with tough and self-righteous inmates who get 'inmate points' for murdering certain offences.

On the other hand I don't belong to a religion which supports prosecutions and punishments for actions such as adultery, sex-before-marriage, LGBT relationships etc.
 
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