Flavius Josephus About Jesus?

[dogsgod]

Originally Posted by dogsgod
The most educated, from universities that provide these incredible minds with degrees as proof of their greatness of mind, believe. They believe what was written in the Prophets, as told in the gospels, was of actual, historical events, that these holiest of men once walked among ordinary men, that these written Prophets speak the truth. How can one not recognize such authority and not believe as they do? That the Son of God (2 As it is written in the Prophets), can be denied by some in the face of such greatness is truly one of the worlds great mysteries.

Yes, thanks giving more of this bunk. It remains as worthless and as false as the first time.

Surely you jest. Are you now denying the historical merit that you have proclaimed all along that supposedly resides within the gospels as told by Mark concerning our anointed savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Do you now deny the written Prophets a rightful place in history?

 

[Kurt31416]

Nope, no academic honors remotely the equal of Funk at either one of those links. Why do you think there is? How about listing these honors, not just a general site?

 

[Kurt31416]

It stands resolved that no academic honors even remotely the equal of Funk has been presented here.

Only recommendations on how to look it up yourself.

 

[Oberon]

It stands resolved that no academic honors even remotely the equal of Funk has been presented here.

Only recommendations on how to look it up yourself.

What are you talking about? Did you just breeze through the pages or what? N. T. Wright has as many degrees, has more awards, and more publications. J. D. G. Dunn does to.

 

[dogsgod]

What are you talking about? Did you just breeze through the pages or what? N. T. Wright has as many degrees, has more awards, and more publications. J. D. G. Dunn does to.

And they believe, as so should you.

 

[Oberon]

Only recommendations on how to look it up yourself.

Let's compare awards and degrees from just one of mine:

J.D.G Dunn

Degrees:

M. A. &
B.D. from University of Glasgow

PhD &
D.D. from Cambridge

James D. G. ("Jimmy") Dunn (1939 - ) was for many years the Lightfoot Professor of Divinity in the Department of Theology at the University of Durham. Since his retirement he has been made Emeritus Lightfoot Professor. He is a leading British New Testament scholar broadly in the liberal Protestant tradition. Dunn is especially associated with the New Perspective on Paul, along with Tom Wright and E. P. Sanders. He is credited with coining this phrase during his 1982 Manson Memorial Lecture.
Dunn has an M.A. and B.D. from the University of Glasgow and a Ph.D. and D.D. from the University of Cambridge. For 2002, Dunn was the President of the Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, the leading international body for New Testament study. Only three other British scholars had been made President in the preceding 25 years.
In 2005 a festschrift was published dedicated to Dunn, comprising articles by 27 New Testament scholars, examining early Christian communities and their beliefs about the Holy Spirit. (edited by Graham N. Stanton, Bruce W. Longenecker & Stephen Barton (2004). The Holy Spirit and Christian origins: essays in honor of James D. G. Dunn. Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co. ISBN 0-8028-2822-1. )
Dunn has taken up E.P. Sanders' project of redefining Palestinian Judaism in order to correct the Christian view of Judaism as a religion of works-righteousness. One of the most important differences to Sanders is that Dunn perceives a fundamental coherence and consistency to Paul's thought. He furthermore criticizes Sanders' understanding of the term 'justification', arguing that Sanders' understanding suffers from an "individualizing exegesis."

 

[Kurt31416]

What are you talking about? Did you just breeze through the pages or what? N. T. Wright has as many degrees, has more awards, and more publications. J. D. G. Dunn does to.

Nope, no even remotely the equal academic honors of Funk.

If so, why don't you list them?

 

[Oberon]

Surely you jest. Are you now denying the historical merit that you have proclaimed all along that supposedly resides within the gospels as told by Mark concerning our anointed savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Do you now deny the written Prophets a rightful place in history?

You can spout garbage all you want. I don't believe Jesus was our anointed savior, nor have I ever made this claim. Many professors and academics are not christians. Those that are make historical claims based on historical inquiry, not faith.

 

[Kurt31416]

Let's compare awards and degrees from just one of mine:

J.D.G Dunn

Degrees:

M. A. &
B.D. from University of Glasgow

PhD &
D.D. from Cambridge

James D. G. ("Jimmy") Dunn (1939 - ) was for many years the Lightfoot Professor of Divinity in the Department of Theology at the University of Durham. Since his retirement he has been made Emeritus Lightfoot Professor. He is a leading British New Testament scholar broadly in the liberal Protestant tradition. Dunn is especially associated with the New Perspective on Paul, along with Tom Wright and E. P. Sanders. He is credited with coining this phrase during his 1982 Manson Memorial Lecture.
Dunn has an M.A. and B.D. from the University of Glasgow and a Ph.D. and D.D. from the University of Cambridge. For 2002, Dunn was the President of the Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, the leading international body for New Testament study. Only three other British scholars had been made President in the preceding 25 years.
In 2005 a festschrift was published dedicated to Dunn, comprising articles by 27 New Testament scholars, examining early Christian communities and their beliefs about the Holy Spirit. (edited by Graham N. Stanton, Bruce W. Longenecker & Stephen Barton (2004). The Holy Spirit and Christian origins: essays in honor of James D. G. Dunn. Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans Pub. Co. ISBN 0-8028-2822-1. )
Dunn has taken up E.P. Sanders' project of redefining Palestinian Judaism in order to correct the Christian view of Judaism as a religion of works-righteousness. One of the most important differences to Sanders is that Dunn perceives a fundamental coherence and consistency to Paul's thought. He furthermore criticizes Sanders' understanding of the term 'justification', arguing that Sanders' understanding suffers from an "individualizing exegesis."

And you compare that to Funk, a"A Guggenheim Fellow and Senior Fulbright Scholar"? There's virtually NO academic honors. Here's Funk again...

Robert W. Funk was a distinguished teacher, writer, translator and publisher in the field of religion. A Guggenheim Fellow and Senior Fulbright Scholar, he served as Annual Professor of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem and as chair of the Graduate Department of Religion at Vanderbilt University. Robert Funk was a recognized pioneer in modern biblical scholarship, having led the Society of Biblical Literature as its Executive Secretary from 1968–1973. His many books include The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus (1993) and The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the Authentic Deeds (1998) (both with the Jesus Seminar) and Honest to Jesus (1996), and A Credible Jesus (2002).

Books by Robert Funk

• Funk on Parables: Collected Essays, 2006
• A Credible Jesus: Fragments of a Vision, 2002.
• The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the Authentic Deeds (with the Jesus Seminar), 1998.
• Honest to Jesus: Jesus for a New Millennium, 1996
• New Gospel Parallels: The Gospel of Mark, 1995
• The Five Gospels: The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus (with Roy Hoover and the Jesus Seminar), 1993
• The Gospel of Mark: Red Letter Edition (with Mahlon Smith), 1991
• The Parables of Jesus: Red Letter Edition (with James Butts and Bernard Brandon Scott), 1988
• The Poetics of Biblical Narrative, 1988
• Parables and Presence, 1982
• Jesus as Precursor, 1975, revised 1994
• A Beginning-Intermediate Grammar of Hellenistic Greek, 1973
• Language, Hermeneutic, and Word of God, 1966
• A Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Blass-Debrunner (translated and revised), 1961

Academic Credentials

• A.B., Butler University
• M.A., Butler University
• B.D., Christian Theological Seminary
• Ph.D., Vanderbilt University

Special Study

• University of Toronto, Canada, 1973–1974
• University of Tübingen, Germany, 1965–1966
• Ecumenical Institute, Bossey, Switzerland, 1947

Academic Appointments

• Professor of Religious Studies, University of Montana, 1969–1986
• Professor of New Testament, Vanderbilt University, 1966–1969
• Associate Professor of New Testament, Drew University, 1959–1966
• Assistant Professor of Biblical Theology, Emory University, 1958–1959
• Annual Professor, American School of Oriental Research (Jerusalem), 1957–1958
• Instructor, Harvard Divinity School, 1956–1957
• Assistant Professor of Religion, Texas Christian University, 1953–1956

Professional Service

• Co-chair, The Jesus Seminar, 1985–2005
• Founder and Director, Westar Institute, 1986–2005
• Founder and President, Polebridge Press, 1981–2005
• Founder and Director, Scholars Press, 1974–1980
• Chair, Department of Religious Studies, University of Montana, 1974–1976
• President, Society of Biblical Literature, 1974–1975
• Associate Dean, College of Arts & Sciences, University of Montana, 1971–1972
• Executive Committee, American Council of Learned Societies, 1970–1972
• Conference of Secretaries, American Council of Learned Societies, 1968–1973
• Board of Directors, American Academy of Religion, 1968–1973
• Executive Secretary, Society of Biblical Literature, 1968–1973
• Chair, Graduate Department of Religion, Vanderbilt University, 1967–1969

Awards and Honors

• Doctor of Humane Letters, Butler Univeristy, 2005
• Society of Biblical Literature, Fellowship, 1980–1981
• American Council of Learned Societies, Fellowship, 1973–74
• Fulbright Senior Scholar, University of Tübingen, Germany, 1966–1967
• Guggenheim Fellow, 1966–1967

 

[Oberon]

Nope, no even remotely the equal academic honors of Funk.

If so, why don't you list them?

Your list is not composed of "honors" but mainly of positions and publications. Funk has a couple of degrees and a few awards. So what? So do all of the ones I listed. Moreover, he is a shameless self-promoter. Most of his "positions" come from starting up groups himself and then trying to get on the news.

 

[Kurt31416]

A "Guggenheim Fellow and Senior Fulbright Scholar" is a "few awards"???????

A cold day in hell anyone will point out one here that says the contrary.

 

[Oberon]

And you compare that to Funk, a"A Guggenheim Fellow and Senior Fulbright Scholar"? There's virtually NO academic honors. Here's Funk again...

Yes. Do you know what these mean?

Books by Robert Funk

Great. He published a lot. So what? N. T. Wright has far more publications.

Academic Credentials

• A.B., Butler University
• M.A., Butler University
• B.D., Christian Theological Seminary
• Ph.D., Vanderbilt University

Wow! Four degrees? Oh wait, Dunn has just as many. So do the others. Sorry.

Special Study

• University of Toronto, Canada, 1973–1974
• University of Tübingen, Germany, 1965–1966
• Ecumenical Institute, Bossey, Switzerland, 1947

Meaningless. Just means he spent time there.

Academic Appointments

How does going from university to university make you better than staying at one?

Professional Service

• Co-chair, The Jesus Seminar, 1985–2005
• Founder and Director, Westar Institute, 1986–2005
• Founder and President, Polebridge Press, 1981–2005
• Founder and Director, Scholars Press, 1974–1980
• Chair, Department of Religious Studies, University of Montana, 1974–1976
• President, Society of Biblical Literature, 1974–1975
• Associate Dean, College of Arts & Sciences, University of Montana, 1971–1972
• Executive Committee, American Council of Learned Societies, 1970–1972
• Conference of Secretaries, American Council of Learned Societies, 1968–1973
• Board of Directors, American Academy of Religion, 1968–1973
• Executive Secretary, Society of Biblical Literature, 1968–1973
• Chair, Graduate Department of Religion, Vanderbilt University, 1967–1969

Yes, he was very influential in starting a lot of groups himself to promote himself. Congratulations.

Awards and Honors

• Doctor of Humane Letters, Butler Univeristy, 2005
• Society of Biblical Literature, Fellowship, 1980–1981
• American Council of Learned Societies, Fellowship, 1973–74
• Fulbright Senior Scholar, University of Tübingen, Germany, 1966–1967
• Guggenheim Fellow, 1966–1967

Again, J. P. Meier, Dunn, and N.T. Wright all have as many or more.

 

[Kurt31416]

And now after demonstrating the vastly superior academic honors of those that say Thomas was earlier, it's clear the following statement that started it...

"Moreover, the consensus of scholarship is that Thomas post-dates the four canonical gospels."

is FALSE.

 

[Kurt31416]

And if the scholars weren't persecuted, including losing their jobs for even joining the Jesus Seminar, there would be a lot more.

 

[Oberon]

And now after demonstrating the vastly superior academic honors

HAHAHAHAHA! THIS is how you think scholarship works? "Well, Funk has this and this award, and Dunn only has this and that award." WRONG!!!

The way scholarship works is through the interaction via journals, monographs, etc, of various scholars. Unfortunately for you, apparently all you have read is what comes out of the Jesus seminar. I can give you an entire list of publications showing how and why Thomas is either later or dependent on the synoptics. In return your argument is "well, funk has a lot of awards."

Great argument.

And now after demonstrating the vastly superior academic honors of those that say Thomas was earlier, it's clear the following statement that started it...

"Moreover, the consensus of scholarship is that Thomas post-dates the four canonical gospels."

is FALSE.

Do you not realize that your statement here proves its own inadequacy? "Superior honors," even if it were true, does not equal "consensus of scholarship."

And if the scholars weren't persecuted

Still waiting for evidence of this persecution, or for a single citation from an academic source that Thomas was written by Jesus' twin.

 

[dogsgod]

You can spout garbage all you want. I don't believe Jesus was our anointed savior, nor have I ever made this claim. Many professors and academics are not christians. Those that are make historical claims based on historical inquiry, not faith.

(by "our" I meant the anointed savior of our mythologies that influence our culture, not our personal beliefs of him as savior)

So, to be more clear, you do believe that the anointed savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God as it is written in the Prophets is not without historical merit.

 

[Kurt31416]

Ok, good, it's resolved those that argue for an early Thomas have vastly superior academic honors, and now we're down to whether that's how "scholarship works". Well that's progress.

And I asked first if you dispute that the Jesus Seminar said they had members that lost their jobs because of being a member. I can go fetch that for you if you didn't know it. But a waste of time if you think they are lying.

 

[Kurt31416]

Resolved so far:
1. Scholars that argue for an early Thomas have academic honors vastly exceeding those that argue the opposite.
2. The Jesus Seminar says members were persecuted, including losing their jobs, for being members.
3. Some of those scholars with the vastly superior academic honors even think it's possible the twin brother of Jesus, Judas Thomas actually wrote Thomas.

 

[Oberon]

Resolved so far:
1. Scholars that argue for an early Thomas have academic honors vastly exceeding those that argue the opposite.
2. The Jesus Seminar says members were persecuted, including losing their jobs, for being members.
3. Some of those scholars with the vastly superior academic honors even think it's possible the twin brother of Jesus, Judas Thomas actually wrote Thomas.

What is resolved is you have no idea what "consensus" means or how scholarship works. They don't just whip it out and compare. Even a scholar with "just" a PhD who writes an article received by NTS or an equally distinguished journal is contributing to scholarship. It isn't about who has the most awards. Moreover, you are simply wrong. I gave you more published scholars who have at least or more awards and degrees. They are leaders in the field. Finally, you can worship the Jesus seminar all you want. The do not respresent NT scholarship, and are a tiny percentage of the field.

The Jesus seminar doesn't equal consensus. There have been thousands of pages written on Thomas outside of this little group. How good is your german and french?

 

[Kurt31416]

Why is it hard to imagine someone could be persecuted, including losing their job, for saying the genuine Jesus isn't in the Christian Bible? Someone's teaching that to the students at a religious college and no one might complain and make trouble? The bishop listed as a supporter of a late Thomas would keep his job if he openly argued the opposite?

I love Christians, but plenty of Jerry Falwells left out there.