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Featured Five Lessons explaining the usage/grammar of John for John 1:1c.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Aug 2, 2019.

  1. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    You're confused. It's the WATCHTOWER that places "a God" in front of the God, not "Christendom". :)

    I have no idea of where you got the idea of "...another god in place of the Father", since neither the historic church or Jehovah Witnesses do that.

    Let's stick with legitimate discrepancies between Christians and Witnesses. There are enough of them without making things up.

    "Inferior gods"? They exist only in the minds of pagan polytheists.

    Who wants to change it? I like the authentic, unbiased translation you provided earlier:


    All we need do now is convince the Watchtower of this unbiased translation and your excellent observation!

    God called them gods NOT "because of their divine authority" but for the ABUSE of their divine authority! Satan is called a god for the very same reason!!

    How is it that you guys always miss the forest for the trees? These are the CORRUPT judges of Israel whom God is judging. Had they remained faithful and humble in their charge, they would be have retained their honor and have continued to be referred as "judges" rather than "gods".

    Look, the Jews had just picked up stones.

    Jesus was pointing out their hypocrisy... why did they fail to pick up stones when these self made Gods performed evil works, yet are so quick to pick up stones if they believe him a self made God performing good works?

    Remember, the Jews claimed they were not picking up stones for any good work that Jesus did but for claiming he was God. So if they were stoning him for merely calling himself God (who does nothing but good), then they should have immediately stoned the corrupt judges of Israel when they were judged as Gods (for performing evil works) as well. If they let those judges go then they had to let Jesus go as well, and that's exactly what they did.

    Scripture is pretty clear @Deeje. You shall have no other Gods before God. It doesn't matter whether you consider this other God as an "inferior god", a big God with a capital "G", an important god with a small "g", a side god, a god of trees, the god of sticks and stones, or a god of earthly power, money and wealth.

    There is only one true God Deeje. You'll notice he never called himself "son of a God" because any god but true God is a false God.

    Jesus is "Son of God" because he is in the order of God. "Son of" means "in the order of". That does not make Jesus man, it makes him God. He is also "Son of Man" because he is in the order of man. That does not make Jesus God, it makes him man.

    Thus he is fully God and fully man.
     
  2. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Really? Who told you that?

    How can you say a perfect life "No more and no less" when there were TWO perfect lives in the garden? Did Jesus die on the cross with his perfect wife or girlfriend?

    Why wouldn't it? You just told us it was "perfect life for perfect life". Since Jesus was born perfect all God had to do was allow Herod to kill him and the scales would have balanced.

    Totally irrelevant given WT Christology. It's "perfect life for perfect life" remember? Allow the baby Jesus to die in a trade for perfect life for perfect life, and Jesus can call it a day, go home and possibly return as Michael the archangel. Why stick around and be tempted? In fact, given WT Christology, one wonders why Jesus would avoid being murdered or killed at all.

    We agree on something! :)

    Yes, the ransom would have to be of equal or greater value. Here it was infinitely greater.

    Agreed!! :)

    You lost me here. :( Scripture states a ransom must be of equivalent value, but is never states it can't be of greater value.

    When was the last time someone demanding a ransom said "Wait...I think you're paying too much"?

    What do you mean by "die"? If you mean "cease to exist" then the answer to that is "no" because no one ceases to exist.

    But to answer your assertion more succinctly, Jesus has a dual nature. He was God incarnate. It was the fleshly Jesus...the "Son of Man" that died on the cross.

    BTW, we don't "cease to exist" either. We live in a closed system where nothing "ceases to exist" but is simply transformed (Law of Conservation of Energy/First Law of Thermodynamics). Our physical bodies die, our spirit does not and neither ceases to exist. It's one of those areas where scripture and science can agree but that's a discussion for later.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    @Oeste, fruitless conversations with someone like yourself come to nothing. You are as convinced of your beliefs as I am, mine. You entitled to your view and we will all find out sooner or later who was teaching the truth....won't we? :)

    I can allow Jehovah and his appointed son to be the judge of who is "doing the will of the Father"....and who is not.
     
  4. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I say to thee: nay-nay!

    You're correct we are not going to convince each other of one thing or the other but the fruit is in the conversation itself. I enjoy conversing with you. We disagree but we've always disagreed amicably. Who knows? Perhaps a JW will come along with an ability to answer a few tough questions. At least you've honestly tried Deeje, and have done so in an intelligent manner, but you argue from the Watchtower which hampers your ability to respond, especially when responding to questions not previously asked in a Watchtower publication.

    It would be great if the WT were less dogmatic in their approach and allowed the flock more latitude, but that's simply not tolerable or advisable in a high control Organization.

    I suspect others have run up against these same limitations and have grown inpatient, forcing them to prepare and serve "Lesson Plans" that don't appear on Watchtower menus.



    Yes! Watchtower truths are like New England weather. If you don't like it, just wait awhile and it'll change.
    For example, during your first 75 years the Wise Men were good guys and you could worship Jesus without any problem:


    "In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15​

    Now the Wise Men are bad guys and Jesus should not be worshiped. No doubt if we wait long enough the wise men will be good guys and Jesus can be worshiped once again.



    At that time we will find none of us have.

    We ask forgiveness because no one does "the will of the Father":


    Psalm 143:2
    Do not bring Your servant into judgment, for no one alive is righteous before You.

    Romans 3:11
    There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

    1 John 1:8
    If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

    Only the Son has done the Father's will which is why we all require his intercession.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And whose point of view do you argue from?...Your own? :shrug:
    Your responses here are always 'typical trinitarian party line' responses, so why is that OK for you to espouse yours, but not for me to espouse mine? You have chosen your teachers...I have chosen mine. Your teachers used to be my teachers, so I have been on both sides of this issue. I know who teaches Bible truth, rather than adopted unchristian traditions introduced by an apostate church centuries ago.(2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts 20:29-30)

    Daniel foretold a 'cleansing' of God's true worshippers in "the time of the end"...a 'whitening and a refining' of them so as to remove the impurities and spiritual filth that had been added over many centuries.....did we change our beliefs in response to that cleansing and the 'abundant knowledge' that God supplied to accomplish it? You bet we did....God said that those who refused the cleansing (whom he called "wicked") would not understand a thing....that is what I see in pro-trinitarian arguments....a failure to see the things that are right under your collective noses...(Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9-10)...granted no understanding at all. At the mercy of the merciless "god of this world". (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)..."the blind leading the blind" in a rabble of conflicting, unscriptural doctrines (1 Corinthians 1:10)...that is how I see it.

    Now that made me laugh out loud.....you think JW's have the patent on dogmatism? :facepalm:

    You think the first Christians had "latitude"? Seriously, I don't know if you read the Bible at all outside of your own dogmatic understanding.....anyone who introduced their own ideas and pushed them among the brotherhood in the first century, got booted......such was their latitude. :rolleyes: (1 Corinthians 5:11-13; 2 John 10-11)

    You know, it amuses me that when your own beliefs are challenged, you almost always resort to criticism of the Watchtower, as if slighting our brotherhood somehow makes your own lack of argument less noticeable. I assume Jesus copped much the same kind of criticism from his detractors......(John 15:18-21)

    You do understand that "The Watchtower" is a Bible Society used by Jehovah's Witnesses to print and to distribute literature...? (A required legal entity) We are not "The Watchtower" nor are we representatives of The Watchtower....we are Jehovah's Witnesses, representing Jehovah as disciples of his son...."preaching the good news of God's Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus commanded.....and proudly doing so.

    Has anyone from Christendom come to my door with the good news? Will they come any time soon? (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20) Do the churches preach at all or are they stuck in a building justifying being "friends of the world" and finding reasons why they can't preach as Jesus instructed? (James 4:4; Matthew 10:11-14) Perhaps if they knew what God's Kingdom is, it might help. :oops:

    I don't even know what that is supposed to mean....but I suspect that trinitarians themselves must present their own "Lesson Plans" to keep supporting an argument that finds no validation in scripture at all. Jesus did not teach a trinity, because he was a Jew. To put even the son of God in place of, or on equal footing with the Father is a blasphemy Jesus would consider abhorrent. I'm sure that those who support this introduced doctrine will feel the weight of his displeasure in the future. (Luke 4:8)

    Then we are all doomed and Jesus came for nothing because none of us can measure up.

    "Doing the will of the Father" does not require us to be perfect because God knows we can never achieve that in our sinful state....but it does require obedience to his commands.....not the ones that bound the Jews, but the laws that Jesus said were the greatest of the Commandments....genuine love of God, which does not allow us to break his laws under any circumstances....and a genuine love for our neighbors, to whom we take God's message of salvation repeatedly until time and opportunity run out.....soon we hope, because this world is getting harder and harder to live in. There is no "good news" except that preached by Jesus' disciples. (Matthew 24:14) Who is listening? (Matthew 24:37-39) History is repeating.

    None of those scriptures says we have to be as perfect as Jesus was. Each is taken out of context and given your interpretation.

    Psalm 143:2...What situation was David in when he penned that prayer to his God? Read the whole Psalm.

    Romans 3:11...Again, read the whole chapter and see who Paul was talking about.
    He also wrote..."Therefore, no one will be declared righteous before him by works of law, for by law comes the accurate knowledge of sin."

    Galatians 2:16 tells the story...
    "recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law."

    Do you understand what it means to be "declared righteous"? It doesn't mean that you are but because you actually tried your best in your imperfection to please the Father and to do his will, you will have righteousness imputed to you.

    1 John 1:8-10....In context.....
    "If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we make the statement, “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us."

    Jesus' sacrifice washes away sin, therefore if we sin due to our imperfection and genuinely repent, we have the assurance of God's forgiveness. Our 'unrighteous' behavior is excused, but only if it was not deliberate or premeditated.

    How will the churches of Christendom fare when the accounting comes and they have blood on their hands, supporting the wars of their nations and absolving their charges of any guilt before God in participating in such politically motivated bloodshed? (Isaiah 1:15)

    I could write screeds about your misapplication of scripture, but what would be the point? You take from it what supports your argument and leave out the rest.....I think we know why.

    This just continues to demonstrate why it is pointless responding to your interpretation of scripture.....it is so far off the mark, its bemusing.

    I believe that Christendom is going down as the fake "Christianity" it has always been.....the "weeds" of Jesus parable. The reapers are poised to take action, so we will see who is acceptable to Christ and who is not soon enough. We all have the choice to go down with false worship (whatever branch is subscribed to) or to remove ourselves from it entirely. (Revelation 18:4-5) I made my choice a long time ago....looks like you have too.

    I have no interest in taking this conversation any further.
     
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  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Have to disagree about the demigod thing. That is in the bible, 'gods', called High angels also. They may be real, or fake.
     
  7. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Hi. This is were you guys miss the whole point.
    It was the 30 years that jesus lived as a man that established his perfection. He lived the mosaic law perfectly establishing his right to inheret the kingship offered.

    The weight of his sacrifice perfectly balanced the failure it was addressing, the failure of Adam to be obedient. A perfect life for a perfect life.

    God did not have to die to answer wether mankind can obedient. .. God dieing actually proves nothing to do with the issues that were raised in eden.

    God lived a sinless life as a man...
    Big deal, what does that prove.

    God was tempted by satan and remained loyal to himself. .
    Big deal, what does that prove.

    Surely the issue raised in Eden revolves around obedience to God. God being obedient to god proves nothing.
    Peace.
     
  8. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Oeste here's an exercise that might clarify things.
    Replace Jesus with Gabriel, a faithful perfect spirit creature who stands in the presence of God.

    If Gabriel, instead of Jesus, had been born as a man and if he lived the law perfectly and died in the same manner as Christ would that perfect sacrifice not have had the same effect as Jesus death did?

    Or do you think that it is impossible for a creation to be obedient in the flesh even though he has beem faithful for presumably millions of years as a spirit and has already resisted satans rebellion as an angel.
    Peace
     
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  9. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely! I am not required to argue in uniformity with someone else’s point of view.

    Agreed! I find “Trinitarian party line” responses to be most effective. I would not categorize all my responses as “typical” however.

    Where on earth did you get the idea that I don’t want you to espouse your views? My goodness! Have you ever tried to pull hens teeth? That’s what it’s like when you engage a JW on this forum. Always quick to tell you what they believe but slow to give rationale.

    And no, I’m not talking about scriptural basis. JW’s can give a scriptural basis for their beliefs just like Trinitarians can. The difference is IN the rationale. When I study with JW’s, I was NEVER encouraged to challenge rationale but ALWAYS encouraged to accept it at face value.

    In fact, during “study” the only questions one needed to ask were at the bottom of the page, and the only answers were at the top. It’s the same for all your periodicals and publications. If you’re sitting in study at Kingdom Hall you’ll find JW’s can’t raise their hands fast enough to agree with whatever they found on the page.

    Arianism was denounced as heresy centuries ago. You guys had your shot. To be brief, Arianism could not explain Jesus' claims to Deity without jumping over the cliff into polytheism. It still can't.

    Christian Identity says the same thing, except their “cleansing” and “whitening and refining” is both physical and spiritual. This idea of raising your flock as “pure” while lowering lowering others is repugnant and not a fruit of the Spirit. Jehovah Witnesses are no more "pure" or "righteous" than any other Christian, which means we are not pure or righteous at all except through Christ...and "Christ" does not mean membership in a religious Organization.

    Look, read the 4th Chapter of John again, this time without the WT “guidance”. You do not need to be a Samaritan woman on a mountain to be a “true worshiper” and you certainly don’t have to be Jehovah Witness in a Kingdom Hall.

    Now flip to John 10. Note what it doesn’t say:

    John 10:

    27 My sheep hear the Governing Board my voice, and the Governing Board keeps a time card on those I know them, and they follow the latest published truth me.​


    That makes no sense Deeje. When I studied with JW’s they told me Jesus inspected and APPROVED only them in 1919. All other religions were kicked to the curb. So did you keep to the teachings that Jesus approved? No! Your Organization got busy immediately went apostate!

    Your Organization believes very little of what it believed back then. Worshiping Jesus was fine, dandy and proper at the time of inspection, but now worshiping Jesus is not. You no longer “hold fast to what is fine”.

    The "pro-Trinitarian" arguments won out over "pro-Arian" arguments for a reason Deeje and not because Satan somehow managed to overpower the church.

    Here’s how I see it Deeje, in the form of “annoying questions” that I can’t seem to get answered.

    It’s been 100 YEARS since Jesus came “invisibly” and APPROVED of your Organization. Has this teaching changed?

    No??

    So my question is this: Did Jesus “Approve” an unclean Organization or a clean one? If your Organization was “clean” worshiping Jesus back then, how did it suddenly become “unclean” to worship Jesus in 1954?

    Did Jesus do a “re-inspection” in 1954?

    Your Organization claims the traditional church deviated from the "original teachings" 300 years after the death of Jesus, and here we see your Organization deviating from the "original teachings" you had in 1919!

    How on earth do you explain that? Is there one standard for the church, and another for Jehovah Witnesses?

    Nah. No patent, but they certainly are dogmatic. For example, allowing the flock more latitude to pick their leaders:

    Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint (Acts 6:3)

    is simply not tolerable or advisable in a high control Organization.

    Of course they did. See the pattern set in Acts, above.

    Seriously, I don’t know if you read my responses or even the Bible at all outside your own dogmatic publications. I suggest you read about the Bereans. It’s not a matter of pushing one’s own ideas. The Christian church is big enough to encompass ideas outside of a “select few” who believe they alone have God’s approval.

    The question is whether those ideas are scriptural and can withstand scrutiny. Yes, doctrine that cannot withstand scrutiny should be tossed, but their should be a vetting process before they're adopted to begin with. The problem is that JW’s are not allowed to scrutinize doctrine; they’re only allowed to agree with it, and whatever they agreed with last year they may disagree with the next.

    Your brotherhood slights itself Deeje. Remember the attack your Governing Board launched on the memorial partakers…those brazen enough to take the emblems?:

    “Memorial partakers. This is the number of baptized individuals who partake of the emblems at the Memorial worldwide. Does this total represent the number of anointed ones on earth? Not necessarily. A number of factors—including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance—might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling.” (w11 8/15 p.22)​

    Tell that to your Memorial partakers! Now they can't partake of the emblems without someone speculating whether they are truly "anointed" or crazy in the head. I'm sure they would appreciate the support.
     
  10. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! The Watchtower prints and distributes literature, which is why I was surprised to see a Jehovah Witness printing and distributing his own, right here on Religious Forums.

    Say what??!!

    I’ll believe you’re not representatives of the Watchtower when you stop distributing their literature. Either that, or they can deliver the literature and say “Here’s some Watchtower literature which we do not represent”.:rolleyes:

    Actually it was the Jews who were witnesses of Jehovah. Christians are representatives of Christ.

    Acts 1:8

    "but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."​

    Are you reading this at home? Then it’s been brought to you there. Are you reading this at work? Then it’s been brought to you there. Are you at a Starbucks…?

    Think Deeje, but think critically! If Christianity were “stuck in a building” we would not be the largest religious group in the world today.

    I guess they knew, and I guess it helped, which is why were the largest religious group in the world today. :rolleyes:

    The Christian church has millions preaching the good news of Christ...not just with magazines to wave around but with real fruits of the Spirit. Some will knock on your door when you move in. Some will invite you to their church. Some will console you when disaster strikes. Some will donate or distribute food to the needy. Others will give their own blood to save a life just like Jesus gave his blood for ours. The list goes on and on.

    Because you haven't been following this thread.

    @Trigger2 prepared a “Lesson Plan” which appears to be largely based on apostate literature… “Apostate” being the slur your Organization slaps on the back of former members.

    Yes Trinitarians present “Lesson Plans”. The main difference is that many of these plans undergo peer review. Your Governing Board would never allow anything like that, which is why I consider your teachings “dogmatic”.

    Yes, we were all doomed but we now have salvation in Christ. Even by your own theology, Adam and Eve were perfect humans. How did that work out for them?

    We could not and could never have possibly saved ourselves.
     
  11. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    HI.
    Is it you're contention that Gods creation was difectient and that it was impossible for Adam to have chosen different?
    Did something else need to be added to the make up of the first human pair for them to have been obedient?

    Why is it that some angels chose obedience and some chose Disobedience?

    The Angels, by all our theologies, were created perfect.... How did it work out for them?
    Some stood some fell. God was not to blame either way.

    The whole point is that through Christ we will be perfected then be able to make Adams choice for ourselves WITHOUT the mark of inhereted sin. That's why their is a millenium of christs rule THEN the judgement.
    Peace.
     
  12. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Hello. This is just a general comment after wading through these pages and geting some of the flavour.

    I find it funny how little people take the past in it's proper context.

    I have the feeling that if some of the commentors on this page were Jews in the first century they would use the exact same arguemnts they use against the Jw's against the Apostles.

    After all, in the opinion of the established orthodoxy the Christians were inovators who continually changed their beliefs sometmes going back and forth in their decisions. The circumcission issue and some decisions on the law are cases in point. Their was a definite tension between the jewish and gentile christians that took decades to work through.
    Apostles themselves had different views and it took TIME for the spirit, through the flourishing and blessings of the Gentile christians, to give evidence of who was right. Yet in the end it all worked out.

    They were prophesying the imminent return of Christ only to lessen the focus as the church developed. They were labeled 'false prophets'for this. (read the apologists)
    Their were class struggles and ethnic struggles that required adjustemnts as the truth worked itself out in the lives of real people.

    THEN for christendom types, who took 600 Years to get their act togther, culminationg in a SCHISM of the whole east and THEN to have a REFORMATION and CENTURIES of interdemoninational disputes.
    It seems DISENGENUOUS to have a go at a group who have only been going for a 100 years or so for moderating or modifying viewpoints as they work through the issues.

    Peace
     
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  13. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    This is the typical doublespeak expected when conversing with Jehovah Witnesses. First you say it "does require us to be perfect" then you say it does require obedience to his commands, then you say it does not allow us to break his laws under any circumstances.

    Make up your mind Deeje. If you are not allowed to break God's law “under any circumstances” then you can’t say we we're not require to be perfect! Your statement is contradictory.

    You're confused.

    We are sinners Deeje, in need of grace, as the verses I quoted make clear. It's not that we have to be perfect it's that we can't.

    Excellent exegesis Deeje! See? We don't always disagree. :)

    More doublespeak!

    If I commit adultery and repent, I have the assurance of forgiveness, but if committed this adultery on purpose and repent, I am not? What you say with one breath you take away with the other!

    Apparently the only way to get forgiveness for fornication or adultery in the Watchtower is to claim you did it accidentally.

    There is a season for everything Deeje. We are not asked to sit idly by while our neighbor’s life is threatened.

    Besides, the Watchtower has a sketchy and checkered history with their blood doctrine, vaccinations and organ transplant policy. I don't think they should be pointing fingers when "the accounting comes".

    Actually I’ve encouraged JW’s to throw in the kitchen sink and not leave anything out, just like you’ve done here. The only thing I ask is that JW’s stay CONSISTENT and FOCUSED. They have a tendency to jump from subject to subject, rabbit hole to rabbit hole, doublespeak to doublespeak. I’ve complained about this before.

    As for my arguments they pretty much line up with the tradition Christian church.

    Sure,Deeje, sure. But I noticed my questions don't get answered but your questions do. :)

    Of course! I can see it now:

    “Two men went up to the thrown to pray, one a Jehovah Witness and the other a Christian. The Witness, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other Christians, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this so-called Christian here. I attend meetings at least twice a week; and I make time for field service...all that I can get.’ But the Christian, standing far off, would not even lift his eyes up to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

    So yes, we will see who is acceptable to Christ and who is not.

    Correct. Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.

    Completely understandable given the shallow depth of WT teachings. Again, I appreciate the great amount of time and effort you placed in your response and look forward to future conversations.
     
  14. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Not at all.

    The issue is not between man and angel, but between man and God.

    Jesus was not an angel like Gabriel and certainly not the arch-angel Michael as the Witnesses believe. Jesus served as mediator precisely because he was both man and God. An angel dying as our mediator is just not possible.

    The angels were created but not all are fallen. Revelation 12:14 tells us "a third of the stars of heaven" were swept to the earth, not all of them. On the other hand, all of mankind is fallen.
     
  15. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. It is my contention that God knew Adam would sin long before the process of creation.

    Not added, but taken away. Disobedience is a free will choice. Take away free will and Adam doesn't sin. However God prefers a creation that freely chooses to serve Him, which is why He created us even knowing what man would do.
     
  16. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    For the rebellious angels not so good, for the obedient angels, much better.

    Unlike men, angels have no mediator so they cannot repent. At least, not from anything I find in scripture.
     
  17. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Hi. You end by stating that God prefers a CREATION that freely serves him . Yet the ONLY way that obedience could happen is if GOD did it himself. How does that have anything to do with creation chosing anything? They OBVIOUSLY don't need obedience, in your view because God did it for them.


    And you say taken away.... what was taken away?
    ,
     
  18. Moz

    Moz Religion. A pox on all their Houses.

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    Hi. A couple of points.

    1 The issue actually affects ALL creation. Gen3:15 is as much about the judgement of the rebellious angels as it is about humans

    (I think the focus on "human" salvation obscures the actual nature of the Heavenly rebellion. IT IS BIGGER THAN US. We are a side issue in the question of Universal sovreignty and the issues between satan and God.)

    2. You say an Angel dying as our mediator is not possible... ok. HOWEVER.... If an Angel was born as a HUMAN in the same way Jesus was and lived sinless would that perfect human life not have as much value as Jesus perfect human life?

    3 .Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and David all mediated covenants with God without having to be God/men.

    Peace.
     
  19. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Correct.

    Correct. This is due to our sin nature.

    His creation (man) chose sin.

    Yes we needed obedience to avoid the suffering that results from sin. No we did not obey, which means we suffer the consequences of sin. Yes, we needed God because only He could save us from the suffering and consequences we ourselves (mankind) chose.

    In the Old Testament there is the concept of the kinsman redeemer. The kinsman redeemer is generally a relative of the one sold into slavery, usually the result of a debt.

    It was the duty and responsibility of the blood relative to redeem his kin. So if the kinsman borrowed money, had his farm dry up, and now finds himself in bondage to his contractor, the kinsman redeemer would offer to pay the debt and free the relative.

    If would be total foolishness for the one redeemed to then think he never had responsibility for the original debt simply because the relative redeemed him. If he never had responsibility he would never have suffered the consequences of his debt.

    So it is OBVIOUS man needed obedience to God if nothing else than to avoid the ravages of sin.

    Nothing was taken away, but if God wanted assurance of absolute obedience He could have done so by taking free choice away. But that would make us little more than automatons, hence His preference for a creation gifted with free will.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I don’t see us so much as a side issue but as part of the problem. Disobedience to God is to rebel against God. I see it as equally sinful whether committed by the great or the small, by angels or by men.

    No. An angel’s life certainly has value, but it doesn’t have the infinite value necessary to redeem mankind as did the life of Jesus. In fact, at some point man will be raised (exalted) over angels to the point of judging them (1 Corinthians 6:3), something which can never be said of God.

    God granted covenants with these men. As such I don’t see how these men could possibly turn around and mediate the same covenant they are party to.
     
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