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Featured Five Lessons explaining the usage/grammar of John for John 1:1c.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by tigger2, Aug 2, 2019.

  1. tigger2

    tigger2 Active Member

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    Scheherazade has agreed to follow along and comment on each post of my study of John 1:1c.

    A.

    John 1:1 in NT Greek:

    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

    En arche ēn
    ho logos and ho logos ēn pros ton theon and theos ēn ho logos

    1. There are three clauses separated by καὶ (or “and” in English). The first (John 1:1a) is literally translated: “In beginning was the word.” The second (John 1:1b) is translated “the word was with the god.” And the final one (John 1:1c) is literally translated “god was the word.” [Remember that there were no uses of initial capital letters ( ‘God,’ ‘Lord,’ ‘Jesus,’ etc.) in the NT manuscripts which translators use for today‘s Bibles.]


    2.I intend to examine John 1:1c to show that the very usage/grammar used by John himself shows the actual meaning (whether ‘the Word was God,” or the “Word was a god”). Please notice that whether the Logos is a person or a thing in this verse makes no difference as to the proper rendering of theos.

    3. Since different NT writers varied somewhat in their grammar and usage of the Greek, we need to stick to John’s usage if we wish to analyze John 1:1c properly.

    4. First, the word in question is θεος (theos in English letters), a noun known to NT Greek scholars as a noun in the nominative case. [The other words translated “God” in Jn 1:1b are τὸν θεόν (ton theon or ‘the god’ in English) which are in the accusative case (used mostly for direct objects and objects of some prepositions)] Notice that this form (θεος) of the word ends in ‘s.’ Theos can be used to mean ‘God’ or ‘god.’ Also notice that, as used in John 1:1c, theos stands alone. That is, it has no “prepositional” modifiers (usually genitive or dative case nouns) such as “theos of Israel, or “theos to me,” etc.


    5. Not only do such modifiers cause the use of the definite article (‘the’ in English) to be used irregularly, but the verse in question (John 1:1c) does not use them anyway. Therefore, the very few “preposition-modified” nouns in John’s writings are not proper examples in this study which relies on the use of the definite article.

    6. The next point is that when John (and Matthew, Mark, and Luke also) clearly meant “God” when writing theos (the form of the Greek word which ends in ς), he always used the definite article (‘the’ in English - ho in Greek): ho theos. (You can tell that o in NT Greek is ‘ho’ if it has a tiny c-shaped mark above it - ὁ.)


    You can test this ho theos use means ‘God’ in John’s writings yourself with a good interlinear NT and concordance.

    For detailed examination of all uses of theos in John’s (and the other Gospel writers) writings, see end note #5 in my original study:

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/def-part-4-end-notes.html


    To Be Continued in Lesson B after we discuss this first lesson.
     
    #1 tigger2, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
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  2. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    Isn't all of this stuff originating from generations of verbal communication before it was consolidated in writing?
     
    #2 LiveBetterLife, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  3. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    Not sure that any of Jesus' disciples spoke Greek either.
     
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  4. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    I have some very fundamental difficulties with what you're trying to achieve with this thread.
     
  5. Scheherazade

    Scheherazade Member

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    I can concede most of what you say, but none of those things prove your case. I have told you before that θεό is used many times in the NT without the definite article to clearly refer to the One God.
     
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  6. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    Agreed.
     
  7. tigger2

    tigger2 Active Member

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    Of course what I have covered in this very first lesson does not prove my case for John 1:1c. But it should prove that John used the article with theos when he intended "God." And that John (and other NT writers) when they used a count noun without the article, translators add the indefinite article.

    If you disagree, please give me examples.
     
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  8. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    Examples include the countless inconsistencies involved in the verbal dissemination of the New Testament and the ensuing problems with translation and manipulation of sacred texts prior to Gutenberg.
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    John is saying that Jehovah is God, and God manifested as Jesus. This matches a configuration, like this
    Jehovah=God
    Jesus=God

    Holy Spirit=God

    The reason why this isn't completely obvious in the texts, sometimes, is because interpretations went outside the name and person correlates, and, the early church created a distinction in Godhood, that got out of control. They later botched the trinity concept, somewhat, by, in practice, separating 'God', from trinity idea, as a person.

    The standard trinity diagram however infers this necesssity, anyway, because without it, you get various contradictions.

    There shouldn't be anything odd about this, since the 'Spirit of The Lord', is associated with the Manifestation, and, it matches 'Lord' usage in the Scriptures.
     
    #9 Desert Snake, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  10. Scheherazade

    Scheherazade Member

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  11. tigger2

    tigger2 Active Member

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    Thanks for your reply. Can you give me an example from John's writings which proves me wrong in anything I wrote in Lesson A?
    Here's an interlinear: http://fdier.free.fr/Wescott_Hort_Interlinear.pdf
    And a concordance: Greek Concordance: θεός (theos) -- 311 Occurrences
     
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  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    The DSS, and other ancient unearthed Biblical manuscripts, have revealed quite thoroughly that what we read today in Bible form, has not affected the intent of the writers of the Scripture. It has stayed pretty much unchanged, thanks to the meticulous attitude of the translators and copyists.
     
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  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Contrary, it's quite good to get actual usage transliterations, and it's quite readable. If anything, whether so and so spoke Greek , it lends itself to very clear and basically translatable Scripture.

    Check the Greek, in other words, when studying something in the Bible.
     
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  14. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    No it doesn't.
     
  15. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    No it hasn't.

    What you've just written is so far beyond rational thought it's painful to read it.

    Quite literally, the complete opposite of what this post of yours says is the truth.
     
  16. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Then use the Greek text for usage transliteration, which, is very good.

    You're going to make mistakes, via scholarly guesswork, otherwise.

    Sometimes, 'everyones guessing', and that isn't direct, it's from a word they might have lost the meaning to, and then all the Bibles are going to be guessing. Now, although rare, I do believe there are a couple of instances of that.
     
  17. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    It still doesn't count for centuries of oral dissemination of the scriptures which arguably invalidates any scholarly interpretation of them. And that's just the beginning. It gets worse.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Great. Go on.
     
  19. LiveBetterLife

    LiveBetterLife Active Member

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    With what?
     
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    How it is all a mess, unless that's all you're saying.

    Do you know that I use, traditionally, symbology, that Professors have theoretically linked to 'christianity', ie 'pre christianity shamanistic belief?
    So, telling me something isn't like proving something.
     
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