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"First Copy of Jesus’s Secret Writings to His Brother Recovered From Antiquity in Original Greek"

Skwim

Veteran Member
Oh please.....you think small scribal errors never happened?
Absolutely, and perhaps large ones, but who knows? I know you don't. You just believe they're all small because it suits your needs. Take one of my favorite verses, Isaiah 45:7. It's pretty important, in fact, very important because god is telling mankind that it suffers because of what he's doing to it.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create רַע : I the LORD do all these things."


So, what is רַע? Well, among the 50 Bible versions I checked there are ten different interpretations of the Hebrew רַע (ra`)

"Bad Times" - New Living Translation
"Disaster" - New International Version
"Evil" - King James Version
"Calamity" - New King James Version
"Doom" - Common English Bible
"Disaster" - Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Adversity" - Reina Valera 1960
"Hard Times" - New International Readers Version
(selected Bible versions)​

Think they can all be correct? If so, then your god is one mean, uncaring, *&^%$&*. If not, then which is it? Of course people will cherry pick the one that best fits their theology, and consider all the others to be mistakes. That's human nature, but relying on human nature is no guarantee of correctness is it. Thing is, hard times is a far cry from evil, and whatever the true interpretation happens to be, a lot of people who have chosen otherwise have the wrong impression of what god is doing. And the correct impression must be vital or else god wouldn't have bothered making it known to the world. As is the number of horses Solomon had, and the names of Eliphaz's sons.

You imply the discrepancy between the number of horses (4,000 vs 40,000) is a small scribal error, but in as much as god saw fit to included a particular number in his word, I don't see how you have the gall to judge getting it wrong to be inconsequential. Think god simply liked throwing out inconsequential figures for the heck of it? Now, I certainly don't know why he included it, and as an agnostic I really don't care, but I would think a Christian would have far more reverence for everything god said than this. But to each his own. Want to cherry-pick scripture down to its bare bones and disregard all the rest, fine. Your choice, but then don't try selling the notion that,

"If one believes that the Bible . . . is inspired of God and contains what we need to know . . . then we need nothing more to "build" our own personal "ark" of salvation."

and

"Why not simply allow the Bible to tell its own story? Allow the Creator to be the all-powerful entity he says he is and learn from his instruction."
source

.

.
 
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Jumi

Well-Known Member
If it were noteworthy or important information, then it would be included in the word of God that everyone already has.
Why are you certain of this?

No "passwords" that will provide some magical incantation to save us from the demons. Where do people get this stuff? :facepalm:
Isn't it obvious... same place where people get praying to Jesus to save them from hell.

If there were missing parts of the scriptures, then they are not inspired. There is nothing "missing" that we need to know.
Then have you experienced heaven for yourself?
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Reread the texts; complete waste of time... The idea of Yeshua telling people to believe in martyrism (believe in the cross), is written after by people who have no clue about the Tanakh prophecies.

His death isn't as an atoning sacrifice; yet to find out who the blood thirsty/ravenous beings are, who've not noticed it defiles the Law in the process.

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why are you certain of this?

Because I know my God. His instructions for his human creation contain all we need to come through the end times with our lives. I believe that we are living in the last days of the present system of things. The final days of human government. As foretold by Daniel, the kingdom that will be set up by God will crush all human rulership out of existence and replace it. (Daniel 2:44) Since lives are at stake, no one would be disadvantaged by misinformation. All would have access to the same information.


Isn't it obvious... same place where people get praying to Jesus to save them from hell.

Where did anyone ever ask Jesus to save them from hell? Where will I ever find anyone praying to Jesus in the Bible? Prayer was to God through Christ as mediator.


Then have you experienced heaven for yourself?

Huh? I have no expectation of going to heaven. I will be content to spend eternity where God put us in the first place....right here on earth. For Adam and his wife, there was no mention of heaven or hell....only life or death. They are the only choices.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Absolutely, and perhaps large ones, but who knows? I know you don't. You just believe they're all small because it suits your needs. Take one of my favorite verses, Isaiah 45:7. It's pretty important, in fact, very important because god is telling mankind it's suffering because of what he's doing to it.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create רַע : I the LORD do all these things."


So, what is רַע? Well, among the 50 Bible versions I checked there are ten different interpretations of the Hebrew רַע (ra`)

"Bad Times" - New Living Translation
"Disaster" - New International Version
"Evil" - King James Version
"Calamity" - New King James Version
"Doom" - Common English Bible
"Disaster" - Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Adversity" - Reina Valera 1960
"Hard Times" - New International Readers Version
(selected Bible versions)​

Think they can all be correct? If so, then your god is one mean, uncaring, *&^%$&*. If not, then which is it?

You think shaking your fist at God and insulting him will get you any understanding? Adjust your attitude and you might get what you seek. Or if you have stopped seeking, be content never to find answers.

Ecclesiastes 7:14...."On a day of good, be among the good, and on a day of adversity, [same word] ponder; God has made one corresponding to the other, to the end that man will find nothing after Him."

Obviously it is context that determines the translation of רַע (ra`) into English. The Jewish Tanach translates this word as both "evil" and "adversity".

Think of all the times God brought calamity (bad times, disaster, adversity, hard times) upon the enemies of his people. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not a slap on the wrist. The flood of Noah's day was a calamity of massive proportions....The 10 Plagues and the destruction of Pharoah's army....Were they acts of evil?.....every action was justified for the simple reason that Jehovah is a just God. Justice is one of his primary qualities. He is the rightful judge of all. He can give and he can take away. He can set up and tear down whatever he wishes....does he somehow need your permission? Does he owe you a personal explanation?

Evil? I do not believe that the Creator is capable of evil, though he allows the practice of it at present for a good reason.
If you remember, it was "the knowledge of good and evil" that God originally kept from Adam and his wife. He placed that knowledge in his own jurisdiction. He alone was to decide what was good and what was bad for his human children. Only when the humans wanted to decide that for themselves, did they get into trouble.

Thing is, hard times is a far cry from evil, and whatever the true interpretation happens to be, a lot of people who have chosen otherwise have the wrong impression of what god is doing. And the correct impression must be vital or else god wouldn't have bothered making it known to the world. As the number of horses Solomon had, and the names of Eliphaz's sons is also vital.

The correct impression is what God will give all who approach him with the right attitude. No one can attain the truth about God's purpose in connection with his son, without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44) Unless you approach God with the right attitude, you will receive nothing.

You imply the discrepancy between the number of horses (4,000 vs 40,000) is a small scribal error, but in as much as god saw fit to included a particular number in his word, I don't see how you have the gall to judge getting it wrong to be inconsequential. Think god simply liked throwing out inconsequential figures for the heck of it? Now, I certainly don't know why he included it, and as an agnostic I really don't care, but I would think a Christian would have far more reverence for everything god said than this. But to each his own. Want to cherry-pick scripture down to its bare bones and disregard all the rest, fine. Your choice, but then don't try selling the notion that,

"If one believes that the Bible . . . is inspired of God and contains what we need to know . . . then we need nothing more to "build" our own personal "ark" of salvation."

and

"Why not simply allow the Bible to tell its own story? Allow the Creator to be the all-powerful entity he says he is and learn from his instruction."
source.

Seriously mate...what is your problem? You identify as an agnostic and yet you behave like an atheist. Are you mad at God for your indecision? Do you blame him for not showing himself to you more clearly? Are you fed up with "I dunno"?...... I can't quite work you out. :shrug:

What is with the nit picking? No one is disregarding anything.....but at the same time please give me something important to quibble about. Minor scribal errors are human errors, not God's.

Try climbing down off your high horse and perhaps God will give you some answers?....I doubt he will respond to incessant whining....it just makes him want to....ya know.....
bore.gif
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Because I know my God. His instructions for his human creation contain all we need to come through the end times with our lives. I believe that we are living in the last days of the present system of things. The final days of human government. As foretold by Daniel, the kingdom that will be set up by God will crush all human rulership out of existence and replace it. (Daniel 2:44) Since lives are at stake, no one would be disadvantaged by misinformation. All would have access to the same information.
Seemingly that plan is a huge failure. Aside from the upper classes, mostly clergy people could only read the Bible for a few hundred years. Even if they could afford (they couldn't) to buy the Bible, they couldn't read it because it was in Latin and "outsiders" who read the Bible were mostly deemed heretics... many of them gnostics who valued gnosis before faith.

Where did anyone ever ask Jesus to save them from hell? Where will I ever find anyone praying to Jesus in the Bible? Prayer was to God through Christ as mediator.
I forgot you were JW. You are right that hell does not exist, only nothingness for the fallen. Do you believe that salvation can only come through Jesus? "I am the way..."

Huh? I have no expectation of going to heaven. I will be content to spend eternity where God put us in the first place....right here on earth. For Adam and his wife, there was no mention of heaven or hell....only life or death. They are the only choices.
You believe all this because it was written and you believe what was written because it was written that it is the word of God. Heaven is out there to experience in this lifetime and if you do, your view on what scriptures say will change. You could say being born again from above, but I dislike how many people use that word to mean nothing special. When you are "born again" you see the Kingdom of God or Heaven whatever you want to call it and experience God.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Seemingly that plan is a huge failure. Aside from the upper classes, mostly clergy people could only read the Bible for a few hundred years. Even if they could afford (they couldn't) to buy the Bible, they couldn't read it because it was in Latin and "outsiders" who read the Bible were mostly deemed heretics... many of them gnostics who valued gnosis before faith.

Hmmmm...how is it a huge failure? If you understand the big picture and where humanity has been in the stream of time, all is progressing exactly as God said it would. Most "clergy" haven't got the vaguest clue about the big picture. They have a few 'pixels' and nowhere to put them... they struggle to make sense of it. If you ask them the hard questions, they are hard pressed to answer any of them in a united coherent way. If the teachers are clueless, then how can we expect their flock to have any understanding? :shrug:

I forgot you were JW. You are right that hell does not exist, only nothingness for the fallen. Do you believe that salvation can only come through Jesus? "I am the way..."

Nothing in the Bible makes sense without Jesus. Most have no idea why he had to come and what his death accomplished. They are fixated on going to heaven but have no clue what going to heaven is for. Why does God need to turn humans into angels? He already has millions of them who were never humans in the first place.
God never said we were all going to heaven...or hell. Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death in the Bible. That's it.

The everlasting life that God first offered humans was right here on earth. The fact that he chose a relative "few" from among mankind to assist Christ in heaven with the rulership he promised under the Messiah as King, doesn't mean that all Christians go to heaven. It means that God chose those with the human experience to govern us with compassion and understanding of the human condition. Every last one has lived and suffered in the flesh, including Jesus. These are the only ones who are granted immortality in heaven....not to be confused with "life everlasting" granted on earth. Mortals can live forever as God intended at the start.

The Bible says that those who are promised a "heavenly calling" are chosen by God as 'kings and priests', and anointed for that role. They are resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6) The majority of mankind will live on earth, either as survivors of the coming "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) or as those sleeping in their graves are called back to life by their King. (John 5:28-29) It is planet Earth that is to become the paradise God planned all along.

You believe all this because it was written and you believe what was written because it was written that it is the word of God.

Yes, I believe that God would not want his human creation to be left in the dark about his intentions. His written word tells us what we need to do in order to get through what is left of this satanically controlled world system. Just as he told Noah what to preach to those of his day, our message is similar, and the response of people generally will be the same, according to Jesus. (Matthew 24:37-39) :(

Unfortunately, God's adversary is a master deceiver, trying his best to confuse everyone about God's purpose.....and yet we have the assurance that only "unbelievers" will have their eyes and ears closed to Christ's message of salvation. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) The question is....do we have our eyes open or closed? How would we know?

Heaven is out there to experience in this lifetime and if you do, your view on what scriptures say will change. You could say being born again from above, but I dislike how many people use that word to mean nothing special.

It is very special indeed, but not something every Christian can experience. There is so much that goes with being chosen for the most responsible role in the history of mankind. If all Christians went to heaven, then we'd have 'all Chiefs and no Indians'. As with every governmental arrangement, the minority rule over the majority. The rulers in this government are all personally chosen by God and know exactly what to look forward to, and what is expected of them.

When you are "born again" you see the Kingdom of God or Heaven whatever you want to call it and experience God.

You may have a different understanding to us.

We believe that being "born again" is an experience that is reserved exclusively for the "chosen ones". They were promised a "new birth" as it were, to a new kind of life.....not in the flesh, but raised to life as spirit beings (like their Master) to dwell in the presence of God. They alone are "baptized into Christ's death", meaning that they will die and be resurrected in the same way he was. (1 Peter 3:18)

They will bring alienated humanity back into reconciliation with Jehovah. Christ came to undo what Adam did to his children by his disobedience....the obedience Jesus demonstrated whilst in the flesh is what redeemed us. His blood was the price paid for our release. (John 3:16)

We look forward to "the end" because it means a new beginning.....the end of death and suffering and pain. (Revelation 21:2-4)...the cleansing of the whole earth of wickedness, once and for all.
Bring it on!
47b20s0.gif
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You think shaking your fist at God and insulting him will get you any understanding? Adjust your attitude and you might get what you seek. Or if you have stopped seeking, be content never to find answers.


Ecclesiastes 7:14...."On a day of good, be among the good, and on a day of adversity, [same word] ponder; God has made one corresponding to the other, to the end that man will find nothing after Him."

Obviously it is context that determines the translation of רַע (ra`) into English. The Jewish Tanach translates this word as both "evil" and "adversity".

Think of all the times God brought calamity (bad times, disaster, adversity, hard times) upon the enemies of his people. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not a slap on the wrist. The flood of Noah's day was a calamity of massive proportions....The 10 Plagues and the destruction of Pharoah's army....Were they acts of evil?.....every action was justified for the simple reason that Jehovah is a just God. Justice is one of his primary qualities. He is the rightful judge of all. He can give and he can take away. He can set up and tear down whatever he wishes....does he somehow need your permission? Does he owe you a personal explanation?

Evil? I do not believe that the Creator is capable of evil, though he allows the practice of it at present for a good reason.
If you remember, it was "the knowledge of good and evil" that God originally kept from Adam and his wife. He placed that knowledge in his own jurisdiction. He alone was to decide what was good and what was bad for his human children. Only when the humans wanted to decide that for themselves, did they get into trouble.

The correct impression is what God will give all who approach him with the right attitude. No one can attain the truth about God's purpose in connection with his son, without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44) Unless you approach God with the right attitude, you will receive nothing.
Seriously mate...what is your problem? You identify as an agnostic and yet you behave like an atheist. Are you mad at God for your indecision? Do you blame him for not showing himself to you more clearly? Are you fed up with "I dunno"?...... I can't quite work you out. :shrug:

What is with the nit picking? No one is disregarding anything.....but at the same time please give me something important to quibble about. Minor scribal errors are human errors, not God's.

Try climbing down off your high horse and perhaps God will give you some answers?....I doubt he will respond to incessant whining....it just makes him want to....ya know.....
bore.gif
[/QUOTE]
This is all sooo sad. In fact, your inability to stay on track and respond reasonably has become so bothersome I think it's best to consign you to the ignore room.

Have a good day

.

.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
"11/30/17
For the first time, scholars have found a copy of the original Greek manuscript describing what Jesus secretly taught his brother James.

Biblical scholars at the University of Texas at Austin discovered the manuscript in the Nag Hammadi Library at Oxford University, where it may have been a tool teachers used to help students learn to read and write. According to ScienceDaily, to find a copy of such a manuscript in Greek—the language in which it was originally written—is incredibly rare.

"This new discovery is significant in part because it demonstrates that Christians were still reading and studying extra-canonical writings long after Christian leaders deemed them heretical," Geoffrey Smith, an assistant professor of religious studies at The University of Texas at Austin and one of the two scholars who made the discovery, told Newsweek via email.

Smith and fellow religious scholar Brent Landau announced the discovery at the Society of Biblical Literature Annual Meeting in Boston. The heretical Christian writings describe Jesus teaching his brother James, in secret, about future events, including James’s own death. As Smith explained in the UT Austin press release, writings that added to or changed the existing New Testament in any way were forbidden.

"Jesus tells his brother James that though they are both going to die violently, death is not something to be feared," Landau, a lecturer at the UT Austin Department of Religious Studies, told Newsweek over email. "All James needs is to remember the passwords that his brother has taught him, so that he can escape from the clutches of the archons, a set of demonic beings guarding the material world."

As reported by CNN, in 2002 archaeologists discovered a 2,000-year-old “bone box” inscribed with Aramaic words that translated to "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." It was potentially the first physical evidence of Jesus’s existence and sparked curiosity over who exactly this mysterious brother was. One theory, as professor of New Testament interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary Ben Witherington III explained to CNN, was that Jesus and James were indeed full brothers (James was younger).

"The New Testament says nothing about Mary being a perpetual virgin; it says she virginally conceived Jesus, and it certainly implies that she went on to have more children after that, and his brothers and sisters are in fact his brothers and sisters," Witherington told CNN."
source
Thoughts?

.

It doesn't matter how many copies people find...there still are NO originals.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ecclesiastes 7:14...."On a day of good, be among the good, and on a day of adversity, [same word] ponder; God has made one corresponding to the other, to the end that man will find nothing after Him."

Obviously it is context that determines the translation of רַע (ra`) into English. The Jewish Tanach translates this word as both "evil" and "adversity".

Think of all the times God brought calamity (bad times, disaster, adversity, hard times) upon the enemies of his people. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not a slap on the wrist. The flood of Noah's day was a calamity of massive proportions....The 10 Plagues and the destruction of Pharoah's army....Were they acts of evil?.....every action was justified for the simple reason that Jehovah is a just God. Justice is one of his primary qualities. He is the rightful judge of all. He can give and he can take away. He can set up and tear down whatever he wishes....does he somehow need your permission? Does he owe you a personal explanation?

Evil? I do not believe that the Creator is capable of evil, though he allows the practice of it at present for a good reason.
If you remember, it was "the knowledge of good and evil" that God originally kept from Adam and his wife. He placed that knowledge in his own jurisdiction. He alone was to decide what was good and what was bad for his human children. Only when the humans wanted to decide that for themselves, did they get into trouble.

The correct impression is what God will give all who approach him with the right attitude. No one can attain the truth about God's purpose in connection with his son, without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44) Unless you approach God with the right attitude, you will receive nothing.
Seriously mate...what is your problem? You identify as an agnostic and yet you behave like an atheist. Are you mad at God for your indecision? Do you blame him for not showing himself to you more clearly? Are you fed up with "I dunno"?...... I can't quite work you out. :shrug:

What is with the nit picking? No one is disregarding anything.....but at the same time please give me something important to quibble about. Minor scribal errors are human errors, not God's.

Try climbing down off your high horse and perhaps God will give you some answers?....I doubt he will respond to incessant whining....it just makes him want to....ya know.....
bore.gif
This is all sooo sad. In fact, your inability to stay on track and respond reasonably has become so bothersome I think it's best to consign you to the ignore room.

Have a good day
.

Oh dear....was it sad?....or was it more a case of the truth being hard to take? My words were not meant to "bother" you but to show you why you get no answers to your many questions. If people choose to be ostriches, then so be it.

"I dunno" is not a very satisfying mind set. I was just trying to help. I hope you can find what you are looking for.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
"Jesus tells his brother James that though they are both going to die violently, death is not something to be feared," Landau, a lecturer at the UT Austin Department of Religious Studies, told Newsweek over email. "All James needs is to remember the passwords that his brother has taught him, so that he can escape from the clutches of the archons, a set of demonic beings guarding the material world."
Great. I can barely remember my own passwords and now it seems heaven is password-protected. Grrr.

It was never said that Christ married or had children.....something that would definitely have complicated his mission. As he knew that his death was sure to come, he would hardly have left a widow and children behind.
The Messiah who said to dump your family and follow him alone wouldn't leave his family behind?

When he was dying, Jesus gave the care of his mother over to the apostle John.
He didn't care for her at all. He bummed around Galilee while the rest of the kids had to take care of mom.

None of the faithful fear death.
That presents a problem, as Jesus and all his followers and Paul all had this habit of running away from harm or death.

What is the lesson?
Don't bother telling people to get on the boat when you clearly only built it to house your family?

Matthew 8:29 relates that demons who possessed two men asked Jesus a question.....
"And look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?”
Jesus didn't invent exorcism, nor did Christianity. They would've said that anyway. Besides, if demons are liars, and they call Jesus Son of God, then ...?

There are many counterfeit religions in the world all sown by God's adversary.
And I came to realize, despite years of trying to avoid the conclusion, that I can't leave Christianity because it never really existed in the first place.

Dr Who....Star Trek....Star Wars....people are fascinated by the idea of extraterrestrials and other worldly creatures. Why do you think that is so?
Because having just ourselves for company is boring.

Why are we here?
Per Genesis, we are the maintenance crew.

Is this the life we want? Or is this the life we are forced to live?
The latter. We are all on a raft going downstream. We might be able to change a few details, but we're all on the same raft.

Is there a Creator and if so why is everything so "out of control"?
God doesn't do much? He's like a Sims player who goes off and eats a pizza while the Sims burn the house down.

Do we really have a say in how things turn out?
More than we think we do and less than we think we do.

They have been explored and found to lead nowhere.
Where in the bible does it say all the paths have been explored? Even the paths that hadn't been invented yet?

If you know what the Bible teaches as a whole scenario from Genesis to Revelation, then the rabbit holes become obvious.
But it doesn't. Editors tried to make it seem like it did, but they are different texts by different authors. Just because a library is one building doesn't mean all the books in it are related.

He tells us very clearly what is important to him.
But He can't make up His mind about what impresses Him.

We have a choice to obey him or ignore him.
I'll follow morality to the best of my ability. God can either care about morality or not.

Can you tell me why small scribal errors matter in the big picture?
We need to eat, Grandma.
We need to eat Grandma.


One comma's difference. VERY different meanings.

The final days of human government.
As much as the president gives me nightmares, it could still be worse.

As foretold by Daniel, the kingdom that will be set up by God will crush all human rulership out of existence and replace it.
With what? Where has God shown any desire to govern as we need governing? He can't even be bothered to raise Adam and Eve. All He does is spout off a couple of rules and then doesn't come back until they've screwed up. As the bible progresses, we see less and less of any kind of physical presence from God. It's like He checked out millennia ago.

Prayer was to God through Christ as mediator.
But if I can talk to God, what do I need Jesus for?

Think of all the times God brought calamity (bad times, disaster, adversity, hard times) upon the enemies of his people.
How many of them deserved it? And don't tell me they all did. Maybe if Hebrews didn't "settle" in other people's lands and take their stuff, the Canaanites and others wouldn't have been so agitated?

Evil? I do not believe that the Creator is capable of evil, though he allows the practice of it at present for a good reason.
Negligence?

Oh, no, wait, for Job, it was "for no reason".

Unless you approach God with the right attitude, you will receive nothing.
Sometimes God needs to hear from someone who can keep it real. God can make butt-kissers out of rocks.

Nothing in the Bible makes sense without Jesus.
Jesus ... *sigh*

Most have no idea why he had to come and what his death accomplished.
He has to come back, right? So it accomplished nothing.

The fact that he chose a relative "few" from among mankind to assist Christ in heaven with the rulership he promised under the Messiah as King, doesn't mean that all Christians go to heaven.
I find it strange that Jesus prefers 12 guys who ran away instead of "dying" for him instead of people who live their entire lives devoted to him.

Yes, I believe that God would not want his human creation to be left in the dark about his intentions.
That's what prayer is for, no?

Unfortunately, God's adversary is a master deceiver, trying his best to confuse everyone about God's purpose
The only one with the convenient sense of Truth is God (and Jesus). Satan never lies anywhere he's in the story.

It is very special indeed, but not something every Christian can experience.
Agreed, but does it justify idolatry?

If all Christians went to heaven, then we'd have 'all Chiefs and no Indians'.
Um, I thought God would be the Chief?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Hmmmm...how is it a huge failure? If you understand the big picture and where humanity has been in the stream of time, all is progressing exactly as God said it would.
Picked by a church that kept it hidden from most of the people until less than 500 years ago, I'd say the message didn't get through. Mostly heretics and gnostics could read parts of the bible and the texts that were suppressed by them.

Most "clergy" haven't got the vaguest clue about the big picture. They have a few 'pixels' and nowhere to put them... they struggle to make sense of it. If you ask them the hard questions, they are hard pressed to answer any of them in a united coherent way. If the teachers are clueless, then how can we expect their flock to have any understanding? :shrug:
And the plan was a success, giving those people without knowledge the only access to the book?

Nothing in the Bible makes sense without Jesus. Most have no idea why he had to come and what his death accomplished. They are fixated on going to heaven but have no clue what going to heaven is for. Why does God need to turn humans into angels? He already has millions of them who were never humans in the first place.
God never said we were all going to heaven...or hell. Everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death in the Bible. That's it.
Most of the Bible makes sense without Jesus, just ask the Jews who've had most of it. Though Jesus does have the good parts from a mystics perspective.

The everlasting life that God first offered humans was right here on earth. The fact that he chose a relative "few" from among mankind to assist Christ in heaven with the rulership he promised under the Messiah as King, doesn't mean that all Christians go to heaven. It means that God chose those with the human experience to govern us with compassion and understanding of the human condition. Every last one has lived and suffered in the flesh, including Jesus. These are the only ones who are granted immortality in heaven....not to be confused with "life everlasting" granted on earth. Mortals can live forever as God intended at the start.
Relatively few being almost nobody for a thousand years. Rest being trinitarian who didn't even get to read the bible or the suppressed texts.

Yes, I believe that God would not want his human creation to be left in the dark about his intentions. His written word tells us what we need to do in order to get through what is left of this satanically controlled world system. Just as he told Noah what to preach to those of his day, our message is similar, and the response of people generally will be the same, according to Jesus. (Matthew 24:37-39) :(
Well if you believe God was involved he hid the message well and let it be suppressed by churches. Same with Noah, if you believe all that then God isn't a good communicator or chooses people who aren't good communicators for his cause. This isn't how God works really, once you experience God, you'll know what you are talking about is symbolic and not a huge conspiracy where Satan is the God of this world.

Unfortunately, God's adversary is a master deceiver, trying his best to confuse everyone about God's purpose.....and yet we have the assurance that only "unbelievers" will have their eyes and ears closed to Christ's message of salvation. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) The question is....do we have our eyes open or closed? How would we know?
According to many Christians, Satan is more powerful than God. How could he win almost every time and if he does, why do you believe that he will lose in the end? The theology of those who believe in Satan is like watching a chess game where the bad guy has all the pieces and the good guy is running away with a king and a bishop.

It is very special indeed, but not something every Christian can experience. There is so much that goes with being chosen for the most responsible role in the history of mankind. If all Christians went to heaven, then we'd have 'all Chiefs and no Indians'. As with every governmental arrangement, the minority rule over the majority. The rulers in this government are all personally chosen by God and know exactly what to look forward to, and what is expected of them.
I think many Christians have beliefs that make it impossible to experience. That's the real reason why people aren't experiencing it, it's not really hidden.

We believe that being "born again" is an experience that is reserved exclusively for the "chosen ones". They were promised a "new birth" as it were, to a new kind of life.....not in the flesh, but raised to life as spirit beings (like their Master) to dwell in the presence of God. They alone are "baptized into Christ's death", meaning that they will die and be resurrected in the same way he was. (1 Peter 3:18)
I don't believe there are chosen ones. We have the choice ourselves, it's more about "us" choosing our beliefs or choosing to pursue the truth.

We look forward to "the end" because it means a new beginning.....the end of death and suffering and pain. (Revelation 21:2-4)...the cleansing of the whole earth of wickedness, once and for all.
Bring it on!
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What is symbolic of inner processes has fallen to become a symbol of destruction those judged by humans as wicked.
 
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