Feeding Spiritual Hunger

[RationalRodge]

My observation: A large number of folks in our society are spiritually undernourished. They spend little time or effort tending to their inner lives.

My theory: Many of these people ignore or reject spirituality because they associate it with God or religion, toward which they are either indifferent or hostile.

My judgement: Those of us who feel a concern for other people should be searching for ways to feed this spiritual hunger.

My prescription: One way to express our concern would be to help people recognize that they possess a miraculous gift of spirituality — a reality that they can confirm through their own experience, without reference to either God or religion.

How can we do this? I think we need only to point out three commonly-accepted ideas:

1) Considering that most of the universe is scattered atoms and inanimate objects, it is amazing and wonderful that you are able to experience the richness of human self-awareneess. It's an everyday miracle!

2) You did not cause yourself to be a human, rather than an ant or a dust cloud. It's a gift!

3) At the center of your self-awareness is free will, which may be influenced by outside forces but, by definition, is ultimately under your control. Spirituality is that part of your reality that exists in harmony with the physical world but is apart from the physical world, not pre-determined by physical law.

This miraculous gift of spirituality is validated by personal experience. You do not have to decide how it works or where it comes from in order to know that it is real. And, as with any special gift, you know that your life will be richer if you acknowledge and cultivate it.

Whether or not this approach fully expresses your own personal faith, it may offer an opportunity to feed the spiritual hunger of a significant part of the population who would not respond to traditional theology and established religion.

I'm eager to respond to your comments and questions about this idea.

Rodge Adams

 

[doppelganger]

Very nice, Rodge. You won't get much disagreement from me. Though I do have a question: doesn't language and thought cause me to be a "human" instead of an "ant" or a "dust cloud"?

Same old song
Just a drop of water in an endless sea
All we do
Crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see
Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind

_________

Thou art dust, and unto dust thou shalt return

 

[RationalRodge]

doppelgänge,

I'm not sure I understand your question. I was just making the obvious point that we do not create ourselves, and don't exist because we've somehow "earned" existence. But I do think we have a Human Spirit that is unique among creatures we know, because of the combination of self-awareness, abstract thought, drive to explain things, creativity. This inner life is empowered by free will (just as free will is enlarged by those other human qualities). Does that address your question?

 

[doppelganger]

I'm not sure I understand your question. I was just making the obvious point that we do not create ourselves, and don't exist because we've somehow "earned" existence.

I'm not sure that point is entirely obvious.

What is your "self"?

What is "existence"?

And how do you know you have "free will"?

 

[fantome profane]

Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind

Which only raises the question, are we the dust? Or are we the wind? Or is it better just to see there is dust in the wind and keep ourselves out of it.

 

[doppelganger]

Which only raises the question, are we the dust? Or are we the wind?

Why must we be only one or the other?

Or is it better just to see there is dust in the wind and keep ourselves out of it.

By looking, the dust gets in our eyes and we can no longer see.

If you realize that all things change,
there is nothing you will try to hold on to.
If you aren't afraid of dying,
there is nothing you can't achieve.

Trying to control the future
is like trying to take the master carpenter's place.
When you handle the master carpenter's tools,
chances are that you'll cut your hand. - Tao te Ching

 

[Willamena]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is people quoting song lyrics to make their point as bad as people quoting scripture to make their point?

 

[doppelganger]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is people quoting song lyrics to make their point as bad as people quoting scripture to make their point?

Of course. And I did both post #2! :rainbow1:
What a bad boy I am . . .

 

[RationalRodge]

I'm not sure that point is entirely obvious.

What is your "self"?

What is "existence"?

And how do you know you have "free will"?

I do think that "self" and "existence" are obvious to most folks on an experiential level, although they are wonderful philosophical questions. Since I'm talking about reaching people who aren't paying much attention to their inner lives, such words would seem to be no barrier.

"Free will," may be different, however. It's obvious that there are those who don't think they have free will, that they are acting out God's plan or physical instructions baked into the universe at the moment of the Big Bang. But I think most people either believe they have free will, or live as if they do. Among those who believe in free will, there are those who believe that their free will can overcome physical laws, that it is supernatural. Again, I don't think that's most folks. But I think that there is a large group of people who would agree with these statements: "I know my choices are limited, and I know my choices are affected by urges and inclinations, but every day I face — and make — true choices, choices that are sometimes what I might expect, but sometimes unexpected choices that go against my inclinations. I receive stimulus and material reality from the physical world, and I act in the physical world within the constraints of physical law, but between input and output there is a process that exists in harmony with the physical world, but results in decisions that are not dictated by the physical world. This is my free will at work."

I am not attempting to "prove" free will scientifically or philosophically, but rather calling attention to the implications of believing that free will plays a role in a person's life.

 

[doppelganger]

I do think that "self" and "existence" are obvious to most folks on an experiential level, although they are wonderful philosophical questions. Since I'm talking about reaching people who aren't paying much attention to their inner lives, such words would seem to be no barrier.

Ah . . . but what if the problem in communicating is in very act of perceiving these two symbols as "no brainers"? What if these two symbols were the foundation of all "knowledge"? Wouldn't a carelessly built foundation result in an unstable structure resting upon it?

"I know my choices are limited, and I know my choices are affected by urges and inclinations, but every day I face — and make — true choices, choices that are sometimes what I might expect, but sometimes unexpected choices that go against my inclinations.

But if those are the choices you make, then aren't you setting up a false definition of "inclinations"? At most it would be that you appear to make choices that go against some inclinations because you appear to follow other (sometimes competing) inclinations, right?

But that doesn't answer the question either way. How do you know you have "free will"?

 

[RationalRodge]

Ah . . . but what if the problem in communicating is in very act of perceiving these two symbols as "no brainers"? What if these two symbols were the foundation of all "knowledge"? Wouldn't a carelessly built foundation result in an unstable structure resting upon it?

But if those are the choices you make, then aren't you setting up a false definition of "inclinations"? At most it would be that you appear to make choices that go against some inclinations because you appear to follow other (sometimes competing) inclinations, right?

But that doesn't answer the question either way. How do you know you have "free will"?

Whether or not a large number of people THINK they have a "self" that "exists" is a fact question. As such, it needs to be answered, either by opinion research or the reaction to a program built on those assumptions. Whether or not they think CORRECTLY is a speculative question.

The heart of my proposal is the idea that speculative questions (about "self," "free will," "God") get in the way of acting on fact questions. The "foundation" I am trying to build is to reach folks who are indifferent to, or hostile to, religion. and invite them to start taking religious questions more seriously.

We cannot prove or disprove free will today, and whether we will ever be able to do so is one of those speculative questions. The fact is that most people live their lives as if free will exists, and that fact requires them to live as if part of their reality is not dictated by physical laws. I think that this is an adequate foundation to begin an exploration of speculative questions, including whether free will is a reality or an illusion.

Until recently, I have put my spirituality on hold because I was struggling with speculative questions. Then I realized the danger of waiting for the answers to questions that may never be answered. So what about you? How do you live your life — as if free will exists, or as if it doesn't? As if you have responsibility for your decisions, or as if your decisions are all beyond your control?

Rodge

 

[doppelganger]

Whether or not a large number of people THINK they have a "self" that "exists" is a fact question.

But not my question. These are symbols you used in the OP. I'm not arguing with you . . . I'm just trying to figure out what you mean when you use the terms "self" and "exist." Just answer for you . . . without reference to what "people" believe . . .

As such, it needs to be answered, either by opinion research or the reaction to a program built on those assumptions. Whether or not they think CORRECTLY is a speculative question.

And also not my question.

The "foundation" I am trying to build is to reach folks who are indifferent to, or hostile to, religion. and invite them to start taking religious questions more seriously.

What are the "religious questions"?

We cannot prove or disprove free will today, and whether we will ever be able to do so is one of those speculative questions.

I'm not asking you to "prove" anything. I merely asked how you know you have "free will." Or if you prefer, I'll simplify it: What experience does "free will" represent to you, Rodge?

As if you have responsibility for your decisions, or as if your decisions are all beyond your control?

Neither/both.

 

[xexon]

It's a hungry world out there, isn't it?

Our spiritual beliefs often are mirrored in the way our society functions.

In the west especially, we have become addicted to fast food joints and their greasy products. They taste good, because of the unhealthy stuff that makes them taste good. But we eat them anyway and pay the price for doing so with a state of unhealthyness.

By this same principle, we have taken to serving spiritual junk food to the masses in the form of religions which fill us up, but do not nourish. Our spiritual health has suffered accordingly.

People who are capable of serving a good home cooked spiritual meal are few and far between.

Keep this is mind as you drive around looking for something to eat. As you pass by the shiny mega churches with their full parking lots, keep on going.

Pick up something from the guy on the corner with his little cart. You might be surprised.


x

 

[RationalRodge]

But not my question. These are symbols you used in the OP. I'm not arguing with you . . . I'm just trying to figure out what you mean when you use the terms "self" and "exist." Just answer for you . . . without reference to what "people" believe . . .

What are the "religious questions"?

I'm not asking you to "prove" anything. I merely asked how you know you have "free will." Or if you prefer, I'll simplify it: What experience does "free will" represent to you, Rodge?

I apologize for my difficulty in understanding the point of your questions. In general, the short answer to most of your questions is: "Because I experience it, and other explanations seem less likely." But that's too flip, I know, so I'll try a fuller answer in a moment. But first, let me say that by "religious questions" I meant questions about the meaning of life, why things exist and where they came from, my place in the scheme of things, etc.

Now, let me try to get at the heart of your questions, as I understand them, by starting with "self." Because I'm lazy and it a beautiful summer day, I'll just quote from something I wrote for my web site a couple years ago. See if this is heading in the right direction.

*Part of my everyday reality is my self-awareness, the sense that I am a conscious being, that parts of my experience are “me” and parts are “not me.” But is my self-awareness an illusion? Apparently scientists are still struggling to understand consciousness, which may be nothing more than the product of complex brain functioning. As a practical matter, whatever they conclude may not make much difference in how I perceive “me” and “not me.” ...
*
Sometimes, particularly in science fiction, people play with the idea that we don’t actually exist; we are just figments of some other imagination. Yet I know with absolute certainty that I am not a figment of your imagination. You know with equal certainty that you are not a figment of my imagination. It is only slightly less certain that we are not figments of God’s imagination: I know that I can imagine God. So is it credible that life is really just a zany hall-of-mirrors game in which God imagines me imagining God imagining me imagining God, etc.?
*
Sometimes people seem eager to think of human beings as battlegrounds for a struggle between Good (”the blessings of the spirit”) and Evil (”the sins of the flesh”). True, the sensuous comfort of a warm cloth on my face is different from the abstract joy I feel during a beautiful sunset. But both experiences are part of me. My pleasure is not exclusive to either my body or my self-awareness, nor is my pain. I can pig out because of the sensual pleasure of eating. But I can also pig out to reward my spirit for getting through a difficult situation. Most people, I suspect, experience body and self-awareness as being inseparable. I can take imaginary journeys, but it is not as if I sense that my body has been left behind. I may be in a deep sleep, but my body can still respond. That’s not to say that my self-awareness couldn’t be separated from my body in a mystical experience or in death. But, without my body, would I recognize myself?

Rodge

 

[HB3]

If we can assume we exist - ("I think therefore I am" - Descartes) I would like to go back to the point of the original post. You looked at the fact that we exist as humans, we had no responsibility for our own humanness, and as humans we have free will and a spiritual nature. So you propose to use free will to explore our spiritual nature to seek spiritual fulfillment. I can agree with all of this so far. I guess my question is - do we have free will when it comes to spiritual belief? In other words can i decide to believe in God? To believe in Christianity, Islam,or any other religion?

I think I am going a step beyond your proposal, but this is a question I have been thinking about recently. Some may even question whether one can even decide to believe people actually possess a spiritual nature. I would like to see your thoughts on these questions.

 

[Blindinglight]

While I do not agree with point number 2 (as I believe we chose what to incarnate as prior to birth), I do agree with the rest of it.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

My observation: A large number of folks in our society are spiritually undernourished. They spend little time or effort tending to their inner lives.

My theory: Many of these people ignore or reject spirituality because they associate it with God or religion, toward which they are either indifferent or hostile.

My judgement: Those of us who feel a concern for other people should be searching for ways to feed this spiritual hunger.

My prescription: One way to express our concern would be to help people recognize that they possess a miraculous gift of spirituality — a reality that they can confirm through their own experience, without reference to either God or religion.

How can we do this? I think we need only to point out three commonly-accepted ideas:

1) Considering that most of the universe is scattered atoms and inanimate objects, it is amazing and wonderful that you are able to experience the richness of human self-awareneess. It's an everyday miracle!

2) You did not cause yourself to be a human, rather than an ant or a dust cloud. It's a gift!

3) At the center of your self-awareness is free will, which may be influenced by outside forces but, by definition, is ultimately under your control. Spirituality is that part of your reality that exists in harmony with the physical world but is apart from the physical world, not pre-determined by physical law.

This miraculous gift of spirituality is validated by personal experience. You do not have to decide how it works or where it comes from in order to know that it is real. And, as with any special gift, you know that your life will be richer if you acknowledge and cultivate it.

Whether or not this approach fully expresses your own personal faith, it may offer an opportunity to feed the spiritual hunger of a significant part of the population who would not respond to traditional theology and established religion.

I'm eager to respond to your comments and questions about this idea.

Rodge Adams

I thought Christians are suppose to feed on Jesus since He said that He is the bread of life.

 

[RationalRodge]

I thought Christians are suppose to feed on Jesus since He said that He is the bread of life.

I'm not talking about addressing Christians; I'm talking about addressing those who are indifferent or hostile to estabished religion. I'm saying that offering traditional Christianity isn't going to work with many of those people, but offering personal spirituality (minus theology) just might. I'm saying that Christians don't refuse to offer white bread and balogna sanwiches to the hungry just because their own preference is for sliced beef and Swiss on croissants.

 

[may]

My observation: A large number of folks in our society are spiritually undernourished. They spend little time or effort tending to their inner lives.

My theory: Many of these people ignore or reject spirituality because they associate it with God or religion, toward which they are either indifferent or hostile.

My judgement: Those of us who feel a concern for other people should be searching for ways to feed this spiritual hunger.

Jesus is feeding a faithful slave class lots of good bible based spiritual food , and inturn these faithful ones are feeding those who are willing to be fed. matthew 24; 45-47 but there is great hostility and indifference to this channel that Jesus is feeding , but Jesus sheep listen to his voice. i am really well fed in a spiritual way because i am willing to let this channel feed me with lots of good food from Jesus. but many are in opposition of good spiritual food from Jesus .

 

[RationalRodge]

If we can assume we exist - ("I think therefore I am" - Descartes) I would like to go back to the point of the original post. You looked at the fact that we exist as humans, we had no responsibility for our own humanness, and as humans we have free will and a spiritual nature. So you propose to use free will to explore our spiritual nature to seek spiritual fulfillment. I can agree with all of this so far. I guess my question is - do we have free will when it comes to spiritual belief? In other words can i decide to believe in God? To believe in Christianity, Islam,or any other religion?

I think I am going a step beyond your proposal, but this is a question I have been thinking about recently. Some may even question whether one can even decide to believe people actually possess a spiritual nature. I would like to see your thoughts on these questions.

I'm not sure I understand the question. First, I did say that most people believe they have free will. But I was not suggesting that they merely use that free will to explore spirituality. I was making a broader claim — that the fact that they believe that free will is possible demonstrates that they also believe that they have personal spirituality. So, if we have free will, why would we not be free to decide what we believe — even to believe that my evidence of spirituality is false? We may not be free to do anything we want physically, but, within the choices we are aware of, we are free to choose what to believe about God, spirituality, religions, or philosophies. Is that helpful?

Rodge