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Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Deeje, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    Two people would not have the diversity to produce a population. Two is a terminal condition for a population.
     
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  2. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    All modern human languages are alike in that there is no tie to reality. There are some very interesting languages that break some of the rules like Basque, Hawaiian, and Irish but none are metaphysical.

    Ancient Language was metaphysical and spoken by all homo sapiens. Only modern human languages are not metaphysical.

    "Ancient people" is a reference to people who were alive before the Tower of Babel and spoke ancient Language.

    This is merely an assertion that flies in the face of logic. Sure, you could be correct but no experiment shows it. There is no modern language without such words and ALL modern people see what they believe and talk about it using the "infrastructure of superstition".

    It will actually make even less sense to you in context.

    How can you conclude it is irrational if it makes no sense and is written in language that doesn't even have the words "rational" or "irrational"? You are leaping to the same conclusion made by Egyptologists who never even tried to make sense of it. I did! I found it all makes perfect sense and that it usually pretty much means exactly what it says. The literal interpretation reflects author intent and reveals a scientific language, not nonsense. We see what we expect but more importantly we must parse sentences before there is any sense at all. This is what you are doing; parsing a language that can't be parsed because the meaning evaporates.

    You must remember that no words had any definition at all. The meaning was representative of the referent and its meaning was fixed. There is no room for interpretation. Also the language was formatted differently. They didn't use subject > verb > predicate. They used subject > context > meaning. This required every thing to have three words in three categories and the choice of category defined the sentence. You can't parse this language and you can't translate it because you can't say ANYTHING in modern language that is fixed in reality. There are literally submarines literally flying higher than the moon because every word has many meanings. We don't notice how modern language or the brain works so, of course, we never noticed Ancient Language was different. Then there was the tower of babel and we talk like we do now. We use confused language because metaphysical language became too complex.
     
  3. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    I cannot get passed the idea that he thinks that beavers one day came up with the idea of dams, communicated that idea, tested various designs, settled on the one we see today and that it was all done with some sort of scientific process. What I cannot get passed is that a lot of his "evidence" is what he believes and there is nothing physical to back it up.
     
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  4. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    There was a single mutation in an individual we know only as "Adam" and the Egyptians called "S3h". This was the first human and he bred with the proto-humans and his progeny became the human race.

    The mutation simply tied the speech center (wernickes area) to higher brain functions. It is this which defines the human race, not intelligence, not thumbs, and not any invention, process, or characteristic.

    But the human race changed at the tower of babel and we are now homo omnisciencis and believe we know everything.
     
  5. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    All ideas are individual. All progress is individual. All peers are irrelevant. Most likely dam building was a series of ideas over time. Probably there were beavers swimming on the shoulders of giants before they all got to where they are today.

    Of course beaver giants are puny compared to human giants because humans have complex language and chewing down trees to create log jams isn't really rocket science to us since we have far more knowledge. No more "intelligence", but far more knowledge. And far less ability to gnaw down trees. This knowledge derives from complex language and the ability of Eve to promote and promulgate it.
     
  6. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    This is your opinion and unsupported by any evidence. The word chair in English is a part of the language. When I offer a chair to another to sit on, they do not break through the door, jump out the window or sit on the floor. They sit on the chair.

    You have no evidence that there was one language spoken by all people. This is belief. Pure belief without any evidence to support it.



    So anyone that existed prior to a mythical structure with no established origin of construction. A believed structure conceived and destroyed in believed events. So a meaningless reference with regards to anything. Over the last 6,000 years, there has been no evidence that language was one universal tongue and that suddenly at some undetermined point, 1,000's sprang up.



    Since the only language we can have anything to comment on is written language, you cannot state with any certainty that ancient languages did not contain words referencing belief, supernatural or related words. There is no logic in claiming that these did not exist. If you do not speak the "Ancient Language" how can you even know?



    All you know is that the writing did not have certain words. You do not have the context of those that spoke the language and the culture they existed in. You have a belief that is exactly what you want it to be and a mechanism to shew away anyone that questions that belief.

    You are seeing what you want to see and ignoring what you do not want to see.

    You are extrapolating a belief to become a fact. If they did not have written language, they did not have written dictionary, but this does not mean they did not have a dictionary. I have one in my head. Representing an object is defining it to mean something.

    Any formatting differences can only be seen in written language that is available for study. Anything before the creation of the artifacts that have examples of that language is unknown and pure speculation.
     
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  7. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    We were supposed to remember this whenever we saw Rigel but we lost our science and our history at the tower of babel.
     
  8. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    Most likely, dam building was a series of behavioral actions that evolved over time. There is no evidence of beaver science, beaver schools, beaver education systems, etc. You, yourself, said that they have no language, so how could the giants pass on the information? None of this makes sense.

    You make a lot of statements as fact that are opinion and belief. The ability to construct dams is based on the beavers ability to cut trees. How could they maintain dam construction if they were losing a keystone ability required for that construction?

    I am not arguing that beavers do not possess an intelligence, but in your example, you are attributing things to beavers that no one, I MEAN NO ONE, has ever demonstrated to exist.

    I get that your world view is based on redefining words to mean something else, but intelligence can be tested and beavers do not show an intelligence that is the same as that exhibited by people.
     
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  9. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    Rigel? The Hynerian Dominar from Farscape?
     
  10. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    This event is a myth. What are you going to do?

    Bees have a language. It is complex and effective.
     
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  11. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    The only thing that I have gotten out of all you have posted is that you really, really, really do not like Egyptologists.
     
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  12. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    Because Ancient language just keeps repeating the same 6 or 8000 words over and over again. Most of them are nouns and Egyptologists never even noticed they break Zipf's Law.

    Modern people literally can't sneeze without invoking beliefs, thoughts or superstition. No Egyptologist can make any statement about anything without saying words that are synonyms for "belief" or "thought". We would be tongue tied without such vocabulary. We see what we believe and we must think to do it so we can't describe anything without such vocabulary. The lack of vocabulary for Ancient Language is virtually proof they didn't think like Egyptologists and they didn't "think" at all from our perspective. They were fundamentally different and lacked a brocas area. They processed their world in a digital and metaphysical language that had only a single word for "chair" so it wouldn't be confused with an "appointment" to a position or anything else.

    The "tower of babel" shouldn't be thought of as a place at all. We don't really know what it was though I have several hypotheses and only one involves "Babel" and a few involve a "tower". Think of it as an event at which the official language all over the world was changed from Ancient Language to its pidgin forms. The original language was universal and static but the pidgin forms were local and evolved rapidly. They all share the same vocabulary but the nature of words and their meanings have changed. The pidgin languages were not mutually intelligible.

    I can state beyond fear of contradiction from any knowledgeable person that the words didn't exist and can show exactly how they expressed concepts that we experience as thought. Egyptologists are ignoring this but I have no doubt they are quite aware of my arguments and they can't refute them. Long before I knew much of anything back in 2009 Hawass referred to my theory as "other unscientific theories on the internet". None have talked about it since but they keep backtracking on their statements and hypotheses. They even say they will release no data until it conforms with Egyptological belief. They think it's a stalemate but they are increasingly becoming irrelevant. Data will never conform with the paradigm and people are starting to notice that they won't apply science.

    If you really believe they had superstitious words (no not gods and magic) then all you have to do is find one of them. Believe me you can't because there are none. Not even modern translators can find them.
     
  13. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    How do you offer a chair to a bee, ask it about grandmother, or even tell one about an outcropping by the flowers?

    No. The vocabulary is highly limited. the grammar is limited. The knowledge needed to be a bee is not simple but the language is.
     
  14. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, well....

    The feeling is quite mutual.

    Actually I have nothing against any Egyptologists and hold the vast majority of them in very high regard. I single a few out because it's a necessity for communication but I have the utmost respect even for these individuals. I know what it takes to become an Egyptologist and I know they have a tremendous amount of knowledge individually and collectively. Many of them have more knowledge than I could acquire in a lifetime. Also people like Dr Lehner command a great deal of respect otherwise as movers and shakers.

    As a group I find them nearly despicable. Not because I believe they are wrong and their boneheaded beliefs are destroying the world and threatening the species. they know not what they do. I hold the group in low regard because they refuse to help or hinder me. They leave me twisting on the net forever looking the fool. Also my low opinion of the group is caused by their unwillingness to use science and their disdain for real scientists. I don't like that they refuse to gather data and then censor it like they believe they own reality and they each personally own the pyramids. All men have a right to data and it is wrong for Egyptologists to stifle such rights. The pyramids belong to the Egyptian people and not Egyptologists. The Egyptian people have the right to know and to profit from knowing. The pyramids belong to everybody, not to a bunch of ivory towered and lettered peers. Egyptologists didn't build the pyramids. The average man (more than half the real work was done by women and children) built the pyramids and they used natural processes (they called "gods) to do it.
     
  15. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    [sarcasm]
    Not if The Creator God endorses incest.
    [/sarcasm]
     
  16. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    not buying that

    Adam is a chosen son fo God
    there were other people on the earth

    and if Adam was a mutation …..he spoke to no one else
     
  17. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    You're forgetting two simple things. Complex Language didn't contain much science when Adam was born because individuals all had to start at square one. Adam's command of language was almost more a potentiality than a reality. You're forgetting that "intelligence" doesn't exist. This means he could find a mate with better language skills and more capable of learning his own. Humans can learn almost anything not because we're intelligent or know so much, but because the brain in both its digital and analog form is quite adaptable and powerful. Eve believed in Adam and helped make him famous. If we ever find the courage to look inside the pyramid we'll find more about these two (S3.h and Sothis).

    Adam would have taught as much to the proto-humans as they were capable of learning. There really was very little difference between them since this was the first generation of a species defined by its ability to acquire knowledge across generations. Adam was the very first man/ male homo sapien and his offspring mated with proto-humans creating more more homo sapiens. Within very few generations proto-humans simply became obsolete because they couldn't possibly understand complex language so they fell by the wayside. They simply became extinct just as homo sapiens became extinct at the tower of babel.

    There is 40,000 years of science and history but Egyptologists are to afraid to even run simple scientific tests on the great pyramids to find out and to prove me right. Years of badgering them to do infrared imaging resulted in them running the tests and then saying (in 2015) that they refuse to release results because they fly in the face of Egyptological dogma.
     
  18. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    This is ironic, since I simply quoted your own words. How do you expect others to understand your fragmented, disjointed, and ambiguous sentences, when even you can't understand your own words? It would seem that it is you that should keep up with the meaning and understanding of your own words. In real time.

    You want objective evidence? Let's start with a simple experiment to demonstrate if we can consciously control our organs. I want you to place an apple and a flower on a table near you that is within your line of sight. Now I want you to completely cover your eyes so that no light can enter it. Now look in the direction of the table that the apple and flower are on. Tell me what do you see? For normal humans, the answer is nothing but darkness. Now I want you to consciously focus really hard, to see the apple and the flower on the table(not in your mind). Anything? I want you to consciously try to extend your lens, rods and cones, and your optic nerve past the blindfolds, and then tell me what you see? Can you now see the table, apple, or flower? Again, humans will only see darkness. What does this experiment tell us? Sight is a passive process, not an active process. Therefore we don't have active, or direct control over our visual receptors, or the visual network(other than mechanical). This experiment can be modified to demonstrate that we don't any active or direct control over other visceral organs as well(liver, heart, lungs, kidneys, etc.). What experiments would you have me do, that would support your assertion/implication that we do have direct control over these organs? I can understand not knowing the difference between Broca's area and Wernicke's area because of your poor understanding of science. But even a child would understand that he can't consciously control anything that he can't even be aware of. This is not just ignorance, this is a lack of common sense.

    Unfortunately, this is all just gibberish and half-truths. You have never supported any of your claims with testable, falsifiable, reproducible, or observable evidence. Can you give me an example of just one of the experimental evidence you've mentioned? What predictions can you make based on your beliefs about reality? Lets hear them. It is true that what people believe in can affect what people do. But all beliefs are conceptual, not perceptual. You can believe anything you want about the physical world, but it will never change the fact that a rock will always have the properties of a rock, regardless of your beliefs.

    Please tell me what scientific Theory was derived from observations only? I know of none. What scientist are having problems understanding the methodology of their own scientific investigation? What is the rationale for asserting that "Look" (question, analyze, vet, and investigate) and "See" (experiment, predict, compare, and reproduce), are somehow not a valid method for scientific investigation?

    There are only two perspectives. Which perspective would you think is more suitable for science? Subjective or Objective? Which perspective do you think that humans are trapped in? Subjective or Objective? Our subjective perspective is only related to our perception of reality(subjectivity). Our subjectivity is not directly related to our consciousness, our genes, our habits, and certainly not from the illusion of free will. Also, what facts, data, and logic do science toss out, or call irrelevant, that maintains its poor perspective? Evidence please!
     
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  19. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Anyone that claims that beavers invent dams, by using beaver science, has more imagination than logic. But when someone tries to defend this claim, by implying that beaver's actually know what is the best habitat to invent, then they are using only their imagination. This would create a slippery slope to claim that all species must also invent their own habitat, using their own science? This would be sheer nonsense. Especially in the absence of any evidence supporting species(other than man) creating their own habitats. Unfortunately the rest of post #338 is completely intellectually dishonest, and incorrect. Regarding this post.

    I have no idea if a man winning lotto, will, or will not be responsible for his own plane crashing into the side of a mountain. Nor do I know if a butterfly flapping its wings in China, will directly be responsible for a hurricane in some other part of the world. You are confusing the Chaos Theory(deterministic and unpredictably predictable), with cause and effect(Causality and time-invariant). You can't simply ignore all the other possible events that are also inherent in natural systems. I seriously don't think you fully understand the underlying significance of the Chaos Theory. That is, beyond your over-simplistic misrepresentation.

    It would also seem that your understanding of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and de Broglie's equation, is just as weak as your understanding of the Chaos Theory. Maybe you can explain why our observed classical reality, does not appear to behave in the same way as the quantum reality. In one sense, we are connected in a sea of quantum waves. Our classical reality is governed by the four(or five) forces of nature. It is these forces of nature that are governed by the rules of Quantum reality.

    Finally, my world is much simpler than the quantum world you are trying to conflate. It is a world that I can not only observe, but can test, falsify, and validate. To deny reality, is to deny the perception of reality. To deny the perception of reality, is to create another slippery slope. So, if you can present evidence that demonstrates the existence of an alternate reality, we can avoid this fallacy. Maybe you can describe a reality that exists, when our senses are not immersed in sensory overload? I'm sorry that the realities demonstrated and explained by science, is far too complex for you to understand. Certainly not enough to dispute its claims.
     
  20. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

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    Context must be deduced from available evidence. This evidence includes a lot of things that are normally brushed off as irrelevancies. One of these "irrelevancies" is the people said they used a cool effervescent column of water in funiculars to build pyramids and there is extensive physical evidence they did exactly this. One of these "irrelevancies" is that the linguists in charge of engineering at Giza never noticed the language broke Zipf's Law. One of these "irrelevancies" is that there is foreign sand at a couple of pyramids and vaterite behind the walls in the Great Pyramid.

    If you pick and choose what evidence you see you can support any argument at all. This is EXACTLY how all humans live their lives and become their own circular argument.
     
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